Not the Christmas Spirit
On the same page as it publishes Nick Kristof's list of worthy charities, the New York Times publishes this lengthy and shoddy bit of warmongering by Alan Kuperman of the University of Texas. Why? Balance, I suppose. Almost every non-neoconservative observer, including, unanimously, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, believes that bombing Iran's nuclear facilities would be (a) ineffective and (b) ridiculously dangerous, given that Iran has many effective ways to strike back--not only at U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also utilizing its international Hizballah network to mount terror attacks at home.
Kuperman doesn't mention any of this in the op-ed. He doesn't even posit that U.S. air strikes will be effective. And he doesn't explore the possibilities of sanctions. I imagine that someone can make a plausible case for war with Iran--I'm always interested in listening to smart arguments that I disagree with--but this isn't even remotely credible.
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"but also utilizing its international Hizballah network to mount terror attacks at home."
If they do, every single Hezbollah fighter should be hunted down and killed, and the Iranian leaders responsible for unleashing the attacks should be executed.
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Of course, when Israel invaded Lebanon, we should have green lighted the total destruction of Hezbollah.-
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"Of course, when Israel invaded Lebanon, we should have green lighted the total destruction of Hezbollah."
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Well, sure, spob. I'm happy to put to total destruction of Hezbollah on my (belated) Xmas list. Sadly, even Israel realized that the total destruction of Hezbollah would so devastate Lebanon -- and no doubt much of northern Israel -- that it couldn't be done.
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I hope that I don't spend this Xmas Eve with visions of jihadists dancing in my head.
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And a very festive Festivus to you, and all the other commenters, and of course the intrepid Swamplanders -- one and all. -
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Spob--Would it be rude for me to point out that when Israel invaded Lebanon the first two times, in 1979 and 1981, Hizballah didn't exist? It was formed as a reaction to Israeli adventurism and brutality--probably the darkest moment of Israel's existence: its complicity in the Sabra and Shattila massacres.
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One of the more persistent illusions in neocon thinking is the idea that people respond to being subject to random incineration by becoming less belligerent. The most extreme case was of course the notion that we would be 'greeted with flowers' as we marched into Baghdad but it does seem to be a general feature of neocon thought. It's worth noting that there's a reason terrorism is also known as asymmetrical warfare. It is unfortunately the rational countermeasure in the face of overwhelming force.
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Is it a delusion? Or is it a cover story to try to get us to endlessly attack foreign peoples?
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In other words, do you think Bill Kristol actually wants the Palestinians/Iranians/Venezuelans to back down? -
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Thanks so very much for responding to commentary, Joe Klein.
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It is even more appreciated during the holidays, so I'll take this opportunity to wish you and your family a very happy holiday season. -
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whatever joe--“Goyim kill goyim, and they blame the Jews.”--menachem begin on shatila and sabra.
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besides, those bastards murdered 241 marines . . . . -
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Rhetoric is not enough to justify this war spob. It would be nice for once, to see you and others make an appeal to something besides anger about events in the past.
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Those Marines have been avenged already. Killing "every Hamas fighter" is not possible. There has never been a war of any type in which the enemy was completely exterminated.
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And how, pray tell, are you going to "execute every Iranian leader"? By impressing them with the Bush Doctrine?
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Iran is not Iraq, or even Iraq in 1991. At minimum, such a conflict will be the most intense since the Korean War, and at maximum, while it won't be on the scale of WWII, the conflict will be the largest since that war, but this time around, the potential for WMD use in a critical area of the world will be great.
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Let's not mention the fact that any incipient economic recovery, as is happening now, will quickly evaporate in the face of worldwide economic dislocation.
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Sating your rhetoric is far too small a reward to justify paying this kind of price! -
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53-3: "There has never been a war of any type in which the enemy was completely exterminated."
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Hmmmmmm.
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If you don't trust the accounts in the Hebrew Bible (you know, the book that Christians call the "Old Testament"), consider what the Romans did to Carthage, or what Genghis Khan did when he got pissed off. I suppose a few stragglers escaped from such events, but they then did their best to vanish into the crowd.
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Not that there's any way to completely exterminate Hezbollah, but it's a pleasant fantasy -- unless you're on their side. -
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In general, the Carthaginians didn't just live in Carthage, but in the surrounding area as well.
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Ghengis Khan didn't exterminate any of his enemies. Instead, they intermixed, and sometimes, later, threw off his rule. He did exterminate everyone in specific cities, but just like Carthage, the populace outside was, while not untouched, still extant.
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I don't like using the Bible as a sole historical source as it is written for the "winners*", by the "winners" which is a bias in itself.
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Analogously, Iran's atomic sites might need to be bombed more than once to persuade Tehran to abandon its pursuit of nuclear weapons.
Needless to say, this makes one wonder why Iran could possibly want to possess the bomb in the first place. It's not like they're being threatened or anything......
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We need to make headway on getting Russia and China on board with implementing meaningful sanctions against Iran. Still, it seems the better option then opening up yet another war front in that region.
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It's great being an American, where it's OK that we have nukes, but we can sanction or attack any other country that wants them who we don't want to have them.
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I wanted to forget about Iran for a few days, Joe. Old Bolton was yabbering away on Fox on Iran. A suggestion in the spirit of the season: why don't the neocons set up an anti-terrorism unit and go to Iran and do their bit. All the Kagans, Kristol, Krauthammar - even spob - and the rest will find themselves suitably occupied giving their lives that America might survive. At least the op-ed pages will be freed from their demented offerings.
Those gung-ho for war against Iran had better line up to serve. Our volunteers should not be cannon fodder for these gasbags. Oh, they might ask Blackwater or whatever they call themselves nowadays to provide transport and other services. No doubt one of the RW financiers can ante up the dough.
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I'm more worried about Iran's capability to inflict economic havoc, specifically making oil prices explode by standing by their promise to mine the Straight of Hormuz
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Even without mines, they could force Hormuz closed.
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Mobile missiles inland could impose such a closure every bit as easily, and as Israel sadly found out, aerial coverage and remote sensing is not enough to detect them.
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We would have to commit up to a million soldiers on the ground in order to defeat Iran.
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There is no doubt in my mind that we could win such a war, but I don't see the purpose of committing ourselves to such an adventure without a just cause, and I don't see one here.
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Actually the notion that if you kill one combatant you have one less enemy but if you kill one non-combatant you have 12 more seems to be gaining traction.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1949324,00.html
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One thing is for sure- we CANNOT let Iran get the bomb. I really don't think anyone can seriously believe that this is not what Iran's goal is, but we (well, the world) simply cannot let this happen. You think Iran is bold now? Just wait until they have us on the threat of using a nuclear weapon. I hope to God it doesn't come down to a military strike, but nothing in recent news has given me cause for optimism.
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As an aside, I love how the conservative voice on this was from U Texas, since I bet many that are non-familiar with UT thought after reading this "Ah all those Texas professors are a bunch of crazy conservatives like the rest of the state!" In fact, the faculty there is overwhelmingly liberal, especially in the College of Liberal Arts (which I'm in). As are most of the students. Believe it or leave it.
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Merry Christmas to everyone from Santa Fe!-
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"One thing is for sure- we CANNOT let Iran get the bomb."
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Iran will get the bomb, Apollyon07. Raids won't stop them from doing it either. Remote sensing and intelligence ops will not be enough. I know the limitations of remote sensing because it's in my line of work, and the Lebanon war is a fine example of just how limited it is when it comes to rockets, let along bomb making.
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Keep in mind that many have said that bomb making technology has come to the point where nuclear terrorism is possible by groups like Al Queda - which I'm sure are pursuing it.
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I also believe (and this is where you do have wiggle room, I agree) that Iran would not be so stupid as to attack Israel with WMD as they could not prevent a retaliatory strike.
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On my side of that argument, we need only look at India and Pakistan seven years ago.
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It's nice to draw a well defined line in the sand, but I don't think lighting a match in that tinderbox on the back of a theory (it has no more validity than the old "domino theory" that drove Vietnam) is even remotely worth it.
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In the end, a few to many mistakes might leave vast oil reserves inaccessible due to radioactivity - and that is not the only potential price we may pay economically.
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Rhetoric is cheap. Action is not.
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"The impasse revolves around demands by the west that Iran suspend its uranium enrichment program. That's an outrageous demand, one that Iran says it will never accede to, and well it should not. Having a nuclear energy program that relies on other countries to provide your nuclear fuel is like not having a nuclear energy program at all.
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The Iranians will stand their ground. They will not be bullied into giving up their “inalienable right,” as guaranteed in the UN Non-Proliferation Treaty, to refine their own uranium. So why bother pursuing that aim?
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(snip)
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Iran serves several purposes. It gives the Air Force and the Navy a reason to exist. We won't bother to invade Iran; we'll schwack it with air power. Iran is a convenient scapegoat. Whenever something goes wrong anywhere in the region, we blame it on Iran, even though we never have managed to prove any of our allegations. Most importantly, the Iranians give us a perfect excuse to maintain presence in the Middle East, so we can guard Israel from them and keep them from shutting down the Straight of Hormuz.
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In all, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan form our Long War trifecta."
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Navy Commander Jeff Huber
http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/2009/12/get-real-about-iran.html -
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History of Ukraine contains all roads which pass through its state is the state of the Black and Caspian Sea states of Europe and the Russian Federation and Belarus and the Baltic States. In this environment, Ukraine was and will be, but you should know about the many communities of national minorities in Ukraine, which should assist the indigenous population to win the victory over Russian chauvinism and cynicism.
Many professors from the science of physics know what the torsion fields, which affect the human brain, and at different frequencies program commands to perform the person will be in it in the brain. This experiment was prepared and holding extensive amount in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution, the square of the capital and major cities of Ukraine. During the Orange Revolution, where I took part in rallies, I was surprised by the behavior of a video camera operator, who runs a video camera on the faces of people actively speakers for Yushchenko and Ukraine's future. Why people who participated in the election of President Yushchenko and the future of Ukraine, located in a large garden and joy (remember the first speech by President of Czechia) after the election. I am a former journalist was surprised not competent operator, because the video camera does not include dae signal on a video shoot. To me, at my invitation arriving Jaroslav Ksonzhek, Consul of Poland, where our conversation and confirmed abuse of the Moscow government. It turns out that Moscow is continuing research to control and possess the human brain. It turns out that Putin is in this regard will have the state not only Europe and America but to solve their business programs. Carrying gas pipe through the Baltic States. I want to thank the many Jew for their help when I conducted an investigation, rabbi warned their communities do not come to the square, then be bad for health and psychological disorder. In order to save not only the state president, people, foreign embassies are located in Ukraine, I send the mail letters and telegrams to the President, but in the presidential administration or the children sit or bureaucrats. I understand that Ukraine is very far from your country and therefore should be realistic and simple plan for withdrawal from such situations. You may be surprised by my feeling high torsion fields "But I believe in God and constantly attend Protestant church Evangelicals, Bible study, psychology, folklore, cultural studies, analytics, folk music and songs. Second great experience to travel by military enterprises of when I worked in a factory where assembly consisted of turbines in Krivoy Rog. So I like the saying: The wisdom of man checks only way direction and goals. To convey to the President of Ukraine is a question I have for the first time in its life wrote a letter to the USА Embassy Vil'yamu Taylor, knowing that letters to foreign embassies can check (I wrote the text of the letter to enter a deadlock that people check messages on Post Office in Kiev ) counting on professional psychologists embassy. Maybe my innocence and romanticism great kindness not give me a quiet life, so I thought that everything will be like in the movies. For example, Come from Kiev or the USА embassy good man, and on home phone inviting meeting in Dnipropetrovsk administration and great pity it is all fairy tale, which shows in the film. How can I feel a major role analysis on various issues when I sent a fax wife Ekaterina Yushchenko president and then president's wife appealed to the USА Ambassador (because her aides have not read Catherine fax). So no one sees me as an expert, thinking that I am working with the USА Embassy, President of Ukraine in 2006, invited himself to the USА Ambassador and the Ambassador of Poland. Unfortunately there is not securing for copyrights. Very please note the danger, that Russia may give your country, and protect my copyright on intellectual property, to realize their potential to the benefit of our good relations. Now, please imagine if Russia can use the torsion field during military operations as well as in public (panic, revolution, rebellion and what you want) to be a civil war and chaos in the elections and other companies. If Russia will send a torsion field in the brain of miners from the city of Donetsk, what then will be in Kiev?. Why do I appeal to you Your Majesty, for help! Because you are a patriot of the United States Americas and the state can imagine that a person before the rally (The action darling) can drink tea or coffee active liquid, the influence of torsion fields resulting in a mutation of the body!. This is a question that I have studied, we save lives and you and the President of the United States Americas and many people! And the main thing that Ms. Catherine Chumachenko was born in the United States and was the square with the children. With great respect to you and hope for your tolerance and kindness, Your Majesty. And for me there will be enormous gladness when any man will arrive to me in guests that could make sure in veracity of my moral principles.Valeriy Kharchenko, son of Mary Chumachenko father Vladimir Kharchenko. Kirovograd region, Dolinsky district, village Vasylivka.
city DNIPROPETROVSK 49029
Street. Заміська 39-1
phone mobile 380985052947
home 38056 7166470UKRAINE xarchenko2009@meta.ua
Р.R.
In the Regional State Administration in the archives of Х26148 is evidence and the failure of the President of Career and many officials where the main role played Kyslynskyi (Moskal know) and sent by fax to the fund Ekaterina Yushchenko 2006, no one know who saved the life of the President and the citizens of Ukraine.
Therefore for us and to the nemae securing for intellectual property, but I Gorbulinu in did in kar'eru. In Evropi above all things bachut' man so as I was seen by the consul of Pol'shi Yaroslav Ksenzhik. To god that I did not write script clip where passage-way on elections of dae 90 percents of beautiful result! To Ukraine! I can not arrive in KYIV and be as a cadger near a baba Paraski! On the large failing such for us are skilled questions!
Р.Р.
Only the huge sponsor for dictators and a victory to a bad mode of authority, is our indifference, a negligence, egoism and a sluggishness in decisions of questions! What sense of living by the example to uphold moral principles of trust and increase of intellectual level of our society is in.Valery Harchenko, the culturologist of Ukraine.
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@Joe Klein, You make a very good point about the existence of Hezbollah and a better point about the idiocy of Kuperman's argument. The regime in Iran would like nothing more than to be attacked by outside forces as a last ditch effort to unite its skeptical and democratic-yearning youth. It's what they long for.
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http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/73417-franken-shows-glimpses-of-sharp-tongue-behind-the-scenes
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Al Franken's Christmas spirit. What a jerk. You know, just because you're a Senator doesn't mean your words cannot be construed as fighting words. People may act accordingly.-
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Well if unnamed republicans aides say so that's good enough for me.
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Corker's people are still smarting over defending rapists-know wonder that are feeding The Hill.
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