Klein vs. Frum on Israel vs. Iran

Joe Klein:
.
I can't wait to go watch this. Sounds like a great idea.

"Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence."

- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/movers-and-shakers/

I watched the whole discussion. I understand why David Frum is regarded as an "outsider" by the Conservatives. He is reasonable, polite and keeps to the subject. I assume you have had problems with some Villagers now that you are not part of the Ra Ra Let's invade IraK crowd'

I don't know where you in the spectrum but it was refreshing to watch peole disagree without being disagreeable.

You point to the legacy of British colonialism which gave us all these artificial lines and borders drawn by an office wallah from maps in the archives of the Colonial Office and the India Office plus the latest dispatches from some British High Commissioner, a Plenipotentary or Governor or some other panjandrum with a title..

Would it be correct to say that Mr Frum is not welcome any longer by those who know it all in the Republican Party (all wings included)?

Hey Klein, any comment on this?
.

Yet both Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Vice President Dick Cheney, Farmer says, provided palpably false versions that touted the military's readiness to shoot down United 93 before it could hit Washington. Planes were never in place to intercept it. By the time the Northeast Air Defense Sector had been informed of the hijacking, United 93 had already crashed. Farmer scrutinizes F.A.A. and Norad rec ords to provide irrefragable evidence that a day after a Sept. 17 White House briefing, both agencies suddenly altered their chronologies to produce a coherent timeline and story that “fit together nicely with the account provided publicly by Deputy Defense Secretary Wolfowitz and Vice President Cheney.”

Farmer further observes that the Bush administration wrongly asserted that the chain of command functioned on 9/11; that President Bush issued an authorization to shoot down hijacked commercial flights; and that top officials at F.A.A. headquarters coordinated their actions with the military. Farmer's verdict: “History should record that whether through unprecedented administrative incompetence or orchestrated mendacity, the American people were misled about the nation's response to the 9/11 attacks.”

.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/review/Heilbrunn-t.html?_r=1

Bitter: borders drawn by colonial powers (British, French, Belgian) have been the source of many boundary disputes.

Likewise, the dispute between Israel and Palestine is all about a boundary. What seems clear is that Israel's search for a secure border may see the West Bank become another Gaza.
To Joe: how realistic is it to expect Israel to give back land it captured in 1967?

"Answer unclear. Please ask again later"

Heading off spob and company at the pass:

Obama bowed low to the Japanese Emperor! Michelle's inappropriate dress! Obama's inappropriate speech to Native Americans the day of the Fort Hood tragedy!

Fox News! Drudge! Run for your life! We're doomed! The socialist does it again!

Now I'll go take a gander at your discussion of Israel and Iran...

Typical Republican:
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
.
Sane American:
No that's just a seagull.
.
Typical Republican:
The sky is falling! Don't you see? How could you miss it?!?!
.
splat!
.
Typical Republicanm grabbing iron:
Look at what that bird did!
Blam! Blamblamblam! Blam! Pop! PipipipipipipipPOP!
.
Sane American:
Why'd you do that?
.
Typical Republican:
His behavior was totally inappropriate! He needs to be held accountable for his actions!
.
Sane American:
He just did what seagulls do, you numbskull.
.
Typical Republican, waving his gun in the sane American's face:
He needed to be taught a lesson. You going to disagree with me?
.
Sane American:
Uh, no.
.
Typical Republican:
See, I told you so!
.
Typical Republican, chasing more seagulls as they fly overhead:
The sky is falling! Blamblampop! Watch out, they're attacking us! The sky is falling...

Excellent discussion. Congratulations to the two of you.

Mr. Frum, I've thought this a number of times on reading your work, I really don't think you qualify as a conservative any more in the U.S. context.

Both of you, please keep up your excellent commentary on U.S. politics. I have a number of Canadian friends who are convinced that Americans are congenitally incapable of making sense (and I must admit, they have some powerful ammunition). Your writings are a potent response.

Mr. Klein...do you consider yourself a conservative, or a liberal, or middle-of-the-road?

Best,
Tom

“Not much to look at, but a good conversation?” See Joe the Anonymous Juvenile Bully in:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/aboutus.php
Kirchick versus Klein
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024937.php

November 12, 2009 Posted by Scott at 7:18 AM
“On Tuesday the precocious James Kirchick participated in a workshop discussion with the venerable leftist madman Joe Klein, now of Time, on the final day of the Jewish Federations of North America's General Assembly. Kirchick and Klein were among four panelists in a program devoted to "The Pro-Israel Lobby and the Media."
Klein accused Kirchick of being insufficiently attentive to the nuance of Klein's argument on the treachery of certain American supporters of Israel. (You know who they are.) Klein assaulted Kirchick with a parade of expletives after the event. The Washington Post's obnoxious gossip columnists report that Klein rung up Kirchick as a "dishonest [expletive]" and "[expletiving] propagandist." One can accurately deduce Klein's attraction to nuance by the way he wields such expletives.
Reached for comment, Kirchick responded with lapidary cool: "One wishes he went back to being Anonymous."
Klein is, of course, the formerly "Anonymous" author of the Clinton-era roman à clef Primary Colors who falsely and repeatedly denied his authorship of the book. (If you missed it the first time around, the book is now available for $.01 from Amazon.) Klein was identified as the author of the book by Professor Donald Foster on the basis of a linguistic analysis of Klein's Newsweek columns and the text of the novel. In denying his authorship of the book, Klein had been lying for fun and profit.
Kirchick exceeded Klein's post-panel remarks in civility, humor and bite. Kirchick's is a performance that recalls William Buckley in his heyday. In 1962 Buckley said of Arthur Schlesinger, for example, that he would be glad to give publicity to any lapse by Professor Schlesinger into sanity, and that he did "not worry that such a guarantee w[ould] heavily mortgage my future time."
Checking out the obnoxious Post gossip columnists' account of the doings, one is reminded that Kirckick is the young man who called out Klein as a "juvenile bully" for his remarkably offensive comments attacking Charles Krauthammer earlier this year. Kirchick was on the money then, and he is on the money now in wittily wishing for Klein's disappearance from our public life.”

UPDATE: TPMMuckraker

Kirchick tells TPMmuckraker that he never raised his voice, and that he asked Klein afterwards "Why are you using this sort of language?" It was this that prompted Klein to call him a "dishonest prick."
Klein kept referring to Kirchick's age, but "he was the one acting like a child," said Kirchick.
Kirchick compared Klein's focus on Kirchick's age to Klein's remark this summer that the work of neoconservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, who is confined to a wheelchair, "would have a lot more nuance if he were able to see the situations he's writing about," -- a comment Klein later apologized for.
"Why cant we debate the substantive issues? Why is it you always have to impugn people's motives and qualifications?" Kirchick asked, addressing Klein directly.
Klein declined to comment.
Kirchick scores again: "He was the one acting like a child."

MyAmerica: Saint Michael Traveler

Patsy to Israel: The Neoconservative Front

The national security is the driving force for Iran. If security is good for Israel, then, it is also good for Turks, Persians and Arabs.

Israel is the only nuclear bomb state in the Middle East.

A nuclear bomb free Middle East will remove pressure from all the other nations, including Iran to develop nuclear bomb in the future for deterrence against Israeli's nuclear bombs.

Soviet Union had to develop the nuclear bomb because USA had already developed nuclear bomb and we (President Truman) were making sure the Russians knew it. India, China and Pakistan developed the nuclear bomb because the other nations, i.e. India and China, Pakistan and India, used the bomb as deterrence against the other. Israel developed the bomb because of her fear of the Arabs; Iran was a friend and collaborator of Israel at the time. Now, Israel demands that she must be the only nation in the region to have the nuclear bomb.
Let us create a win-win situation for all of the nations in the Middle East. The nuclear disarmament must start somewhere, where to start? I suggest the following three steps to correct our failed foreign policy with respect to the Middle East:

1. Nuclear Fuel Cycle Iranian Consortium:
USA should join the Iranian nuclear fuel consortium. The other nation may include Japan, Germany, France, Russia and England to actively monitor the Iranian fuel cycle activity. IAEA has consistently asserted that the agency could not find any indications that Iran is diverting the fuel cycle for nuclear bomb development. Iran has asserted that their activities are limited to development of fuel for nuclear reactor.

2. Nuclear Shield:
An international nuclear shield for all nations in the Middle East, including Iran, Israel, Turkey and all the Arab nations in the region.

3. A nuclear- bomb-free Middle East:
This action will remove any pressure from Iran to develop nuclear bomb in the future for deterrence against nuclear bomb Israeli state.

We and our representatives in the Congress must stop the hideous play of hypocrisy and face the facts in the Middle East, Israel has nuclear bombs. For almost 50 years we have been playing this game of patsy to Israel and her demands.

We would not need the conservatives to tell us about our national security while they act as fronts for the Israeli's interests. We must place our national interest above those of Israel and recognize that we must be fair in dealing with all the nations in the region.