A Presidential Diss?

stuart

I hope you are right and Obama has a frank discussion with Bibi, and he does not ant to voice his displeasure in public and embarrass the Israeli Prime Minister.

"We can hope that the President of the United States is finally negotiating a real solution from a resolute position of strength with our ally, can't we, Joe Klein?"

No, you can't. Obama has been foolish. The No settlement demand was pointless. They've been negotiating over two decades while settlements were under construction all the time.

In his Cairo speech Obama managed to compound his error on settlements by telling the muslim audience their sense of victimization over the creation of Israel as the result of European guilt (holocaust) was justified. He wanted and received thundering applause.

Too bad no one told him the jews were watching just as closely. He butchered Israeli history and insulted every jew. His polls in Israel sunk to single digits making it easy for Netanyahu to do the Gandhi imitation Joe Klein finds so infuriating.

Possibly worse for Obama in that same stupid speech he all but promised Islam he'd stop all settlement construction. He told 1.2B muslims what he was going to do and last week he and Hillary said, "Never mind" . On Israeli TV while mucking it up with BiBi.

Obama has managed to make BiBi popular and Abbas look even weaker and more inept than he is. Now they have to find a way to cancel elections In January Abbas cannot win. Obama looks the fool by both parties.

"embarrass the Israeli Prime Minister."

You have it reversed. Obama has been a bull in a China shop as regards Israeli domestic politics. BiBi has been pitch perfect. Obama's polls in Israel are in the toilet.

Sunday night Hillary appeared on Israeli TV in a yuckfest with Netanyahu praising his unprecidented agreement allowing no settlements in East Jerusalem. As Joe as apply put it, allowed "BiBi-as-Candhi" act to continue.

so exactly how a few days later does Obama embarrass Netanyahu?

rdw56,

The problem is not that Obama made the settlements an issue. The problem is he didn't back them up. People forget that Bush I gave Prime Minister Itzak Shamir an ultimatum regarding settlements and backed it up with a threat to cut off financial aid. Shamir blinked and settlement building froze for a short while. It is ironic that Bush II gave de facto recognition to these settlements which made Abbas position even more untenable.

Obama caved in. Now the Palestinians will not trust him to produce anything. And Netanyahu knows he does not have to listen. Netanyahu may have won the battle, but ultimately he will lose the war.

rdw56,

You have a point. Bibi has clearly "schooled" Obama and having Hillary sing his praises is a clear indication that the Obama administration does not have the cajonies to take on Netanyahu's government.

And you are right, after Clinton's cronies orchestrated his defeat for Israeli prime minister in the late 90's, Bibi took some skillful lessons from Slick Willie.

Stuart~
Don't hold your breath. My thoughts: this is another instance, in a long line of instances, of the US capitulating to perverse, immoral, and extreme Israeli demands. Why we are so irrationality indebted to the Zionist (racist) regime? What power do they wield over our fickle political minds? I shudder at the thought.
~~~
rdw56~
Thanks for noting that Obama butchered "Israeli" history. We all know that their version is entirely revisionist. So essentially, you concede that Obama, at least in terms of his Cairo speech, professed an accurate, globally accepted version of the reality of the conflict. With that said, I agree that Obama has now reneged on his promises to the Palestinians and has swayed to Israeli intransigence. He has alienated the world through his pursuit of America's status quo foreign policy. His rhetoric has never matched his actions, or possibly even his intent. His static perpetuation of America's complicity in injustice and oppression will ultimately secure himself a place among the lesser of American presidents when history judges our generation, long after Israeli entitlement has, along with invocations of the holocaust, faded into the annals of history.

"The problem is not that Obama made the settlements an issue. The problem is he didn't back them up."

We both agree this is a debacle but for idfferent reasons. I do agree once he takes a position he's got to be consistent but the core problem is taking the correct position in the 1st place.

The fact is the jews have been building settlements for most of the last 20 years and there have been a series of peace talks during that construction. Israel was bulding settlments when they started their secret meetings before the Oslo accords.

It appears Obama wanted an issue he could use to appear tough on Israel to gain the support of Palestinians. Perhaps not a bad tactic to maneuver one into the role of honest broker but pick something you can actually accomplish. Netanyahu is hardly the darling of the jewish people. But there is broad public support in Israel for these settlements. Obama never had a prayer of getting the Israeli people to side with him against Netanyahu as Clinton did in the late 90's. BiBi has so politically outmaneuvered Obama it's embarrasing. .

Netanyahu has already won the war. It's over. Obama is toast inside Israel and not doing well outside Israel. Abbas was weak to begin with. The core problem isn't Palestine but Iran. The Arab govts are tired of fighting Israel only to see them become progressively more prosperous and powerful. Israel stopped seeing them as a threat long ago and now wishes to do commerce with them. They have a real threat in Persia and the various proxy armies Iran supports which are an even greater threat to the Arab govts.

Talk of cutting aid to Israel as if that will hurt Israel is embassing. Israel just crushed hamas in one of the most lopsided victories in history. The Israeli and Arabs want the to state solution and the way to get there is to evict Hamas from Gaza and fully restore the economies of the West Bank and Gaza. The main inpediment is Iran.

Until Obama recognizes that he is dead in the water. BiBi will toy with him and Abbas ignore him.

rdw56: " .. He butchered Israeli history and insulted every jew. .."

SO?

.. He butchered Israeli history and insulted every jew. .."

"SO?"

So to the extent Obama wanted to play honest broker in peace talks between Israel and Palestine he blew it. The Jews don't trust him.

So to the extent he wanted to marginalize Netanyahu by making BiBi appear rude or ignorant or difficult it was a bad idea to start out being rude and ignorant and difficult to the Israeli people.

Bill Clinton was able to erode Netanyahu's public support when he was Prime Minister in 1997. BiBi eventually had to call elections and he lost to Ehud barak. Barak Obama has made Netanyahu MORE popular and himself a buffoon.

Many Isaeli's are done with him. Either he intended to insult them or he's that ignorant of jewish history or both.

rdw56~
As I said above, Jewish history is a lie. It's mere propaganda revisionism.
-The probity of early Jewish settlers in Palestine? Uh, yea, sure.
-The "freedom fighting" efforts of Irgun, Stern Gang, and Haganah? Of course!
-The desolate wasteland turned bountiful garden at the hands of Jewish labor? What else could it be?!
-The supremacy of Jewish blood? Who'd question the notion!?
-The extremist tendency of the Palestinian "terrorists?" Inherently!
-And my all time favorite: Israel's right to occupy Palestine, including Judea and Samaria (West Bank)? God's will!
~~~
There's Israeli history for you, rdw56. All lies and delusions.

He butchered Israeli history and insulted every jew.
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...Except for Joe Klein, apparently.
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I love how the Likudniks claim to speak for every co-religionist on earth.

"Except for Joe Klein, apparently"

I was referring to Israeli Jews. American Jews are often as ignorant of Israeli history as American liberals are of US history.

Give Joe a break. He's having a hard time. He thought Obama the messiah. He finally senses things are not going according to his plan. If he ever really had a plan.

" I'd guess that this is an indication that the President's Middle East Peace Initiative isn't going so well"

Ya thing Joe? Exactly when was it that it WAS going well?

"People forget that Bush I gave Prime Minister Itzak Shamir an ultimatum regarding settlements and backed it up with a threat to cut off financial aid. Shamir blinked and settlement building froze for a short while."

This isn't 1990. The Israeli economy is almost triple the size with a booming defense industry and their military vastly stronger relative to their enemies. Moreover the security fence has taken some pressure off the border defenses. That aid isn't near as critical in 2009 as it was in 1990.

In addition there have been two very serious negotiating sessions one with Arafat and another with Abbas where land swaps were tacitly approved. The Israeli settlements are on land that will become part of Israel while Palestine will receive equivalent acerage some of which will create a land bridge between the West Bank and Gaza.

Both of these sets of netogiations as well as the negotiations prior to the Olso accords and then the oslo accords themselves took place while Israel was building settlements. There is no logical reasons settlement construction should prevent negotiations. If Israel is improving land that is going to become part of Palestine then they get a lot of extra value.

The bottom line of the land swaps is Palestine ends up with the same amount of land of the same quality.

Also note GHWB isn't known for any breakthroughs in the relationhip. It isn't like his efforts resulted in progress.

Rustydog:
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"Yes we can"?

So what do you think Obama will do? Name something Congress can support. They just voted something like 390 to 30 to condemn the Goldstone report.

Wanna cut aid do you? Virtually all $3B is used to buy equipment from the US defense industries. which employ US workers. Many of these companies widely have distributed facilities. It might be McDonnell Douglas operates in 47 states.

If you can count that's 94 Senators they can call on to lobby Obama to keep their plants open. And probably 425 of 436 congressmen. Add 47 Governors to that list.

Obama is a President, not a King. Israel is well supplied and not at war. We'll have an election 11/2010. Congress isn't cutting aid to Israel. If he wanted to he's still not cutting aid to Israel.

Thanks grape. I wanted that link.

Why is it that many - especially those in USA's- judeo-centric media - refer to Israel as a "Jewish state"?
- Why is it not referred to as the "Judaic state" or, with regard to the belligerency of its leaders, the "jewish regime" or the "rogue state of Israel"?
- Do the media similarly refer to UK as a Celtic state? [Still checking.]
- Do the media and the jews thereby suggest to us that non-Jews don't belong in Israel?
If so, then why do we, the unwanted gentiles, meekly have to bear the burden of feeding them, providing them with shelter and protecting them? Or do they, the lords, view that as the lot of the cursed gentiles?

Speaking of Goldstone, here's a great new article on why the U.S. "had to" condemn the report:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/11/2009111174626931966.html

" .. As famed general Moshe Dayan once put it, (Israel's) settlements in the Occupied Territories are essential "not because they can ensure security better than the army, but because without them we cannot keep the army in those territories. Without them the IDF would be a foreign army ruling a foreign population". .."

It is unfortunate that - without their express consent - the toiling and sweating, tax-paying, struggling and maligned American in the impoverished Appalachia must fund (and thereby become complicit in) that crime, that manifest inhumanity - the ungodly jewish act of commandeering Palestinian lands and homes, brutally marginalizing the Palestinians as well as the construction of those cursed foreign settlements on foreign lands.

Don't patriotic Americans have dreams and hopes of their own? Why do good Americans have to fund the cursed imperial hopes and dreams of foreigners who mock us?

Don't the 50 million starving, uninsured Americans have a desire to own a home and a craving for creature comforts too? Why does the USA of the "we, the people" have to provide for the cozy circumstances of bumy foreign parasites first?

Gosh! Where is a good tea party when/where we really need a one? [Trust wingnuts with no sense of urgency or purpose to waste a perfectly good tea party ..]

That's perfect. Hope you don't mind. I'll be using the Elmer Fudd reference. Got one for Joe? He's finally buying a clue. At no point was it ever working but figuring that our 10 months in might be quick for Joe.

Don't know about you but I am impressed with how easily and smoothly Netanyahu is dominating Obama politically. He appears to have taken his defeat in 97/98 (?) and really learned how to make the political issues his. He's totally outfoxed his domestic opposition and getting Ehud Barak into his cabinet as defense minister was brilliant. Also impressive is his foreign minister taking a back seat to Ehud Barak in terms of meeting with US officials and being the face of Israel. Ehud was/is a great friend of Bill Clinton and his partner in peace.

BiBi right now might be the best politician of this age. I hope he keeps his ego in check. He's run a clinic on Obama.

" .. Netanyahu just wasn't as impressed with Obama as Obama is with himself. .."

I shall wait to see the reaction of those jews when tired, hard-working, very hard-working Americans move to permanently shut off the spigot of US taxpayer funds flowing into Israel ...

" .. I shall wait to see the reaction of those jews .."

I suppose that they will try
- the tired guilt thing,
- then they will try the baseless special-bond thing,
- they they will try the tenuous religion/civilization thing,
- then they will try the bad kid brinkmanship - i-shall-bomb-saudi-arabia-iran-jordan-germany-and i-shall-start-a-world-war thing,
- then they will try hey-rahm-we-are-special-we-are the-god's-jews-please-never-again thing,
...
...

- then finally they will be impressed, real impressed ...

"I can dream, can't I?"

Channelling Thomas L Freidman and other lefties finally aware your ideas are useless?

Cutting off aid to Israel changes nothing. No arab army will dare face them. No proxy army can make them break a sweat. The kill ratio in Gaza was 150 to 1. They are fully stockpiled and upgraded. They have received several dozen advanced jets the last several years and have upgraded the electronics on every jet. They just took delivery of two more dolphin class subs from Germany.

Israel is armed to the teeth. The $3B in aid they use to buy US arms just means the US defense industry will lose $3B in sales. Israel will still be armed to the teeth. They're not being attacked now. They're not firing anything. The stockpile isn't going down. Hamas and Hezbollah are still recovering.

Cutting aid to Israel doesn't hurt Israel but carries a significant political risk to the President. That's why on frustrated lefties make the suggestion and not Presidents.

What happens of Obama cuts aid and Hamas and Hezbollah launch an attack the next week? Who do you think will get blamed for starting a war?

rdw56~
What is wrong with you? For several days now your entire defense, no, infatuation with Israel has been based upon its reckless abandonment of morality. Is this the virtue that you so praise? You elevate a mass-murdering war criminal, i.e. Netanyahu, to the status of "greatest politician." Has your schizophrenic division between reality and Zionist indoctrination precluded your human components of thought? Your incessant love-affair with all things malignant and immoral about Israel has deluded your humanity, all the while you thump your chest and brag about 150:1 kill ratios.
~~
What you fail to realize is that US support of Israel goes further than the astronomical $3 billion in annual blood money. Israel is assured protection within the international community, which, mind you, despises the Israeli government. What do you think would happen were the US to decide to stop covering for Israeli atrocities at the UN? The world -Russia, China, Europe, everyone- would descend upon the international forum and indict the Israeli fools and war criminals. Without the US, Israel collapses, its "leaders" hauled off to the Hague, its arrogant entitlement finally slayed, its economic prosperity diminished, its populace terrified that the sins they have so long prided themselves in will finally be judged, and judged properly. I long for the day...

" .. Cutting off aid to Israel changes nothing. .... They are fully stockpiled and upgraded. They have received several dozen advanced jets .. and have upgraded the electronics on every jet. They just took delivery of two more dolphin class subs from Germany. .. Israel is armed to the teeth. .. "

We have brought such walls of potency tumbling down before - the latest being that of Saddam's Iraq. [Youi may be too young to remember a country once referred to as USSR.]
And we can raze yours during BHO's presidency. It is nothing that a year or five of comprehensive sanctions - with lack of spares, medicine and access to Africa's markets - can't sabotage.
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" The $3B in aid they use to buy US arms just means the US defense industry will lose $3B in sales. .."

But that is money the Israeli will have to re-direct from their drive to commandeer Palestinian lands and houses and killing of Palestinians into providing for health, education and other social services for their fanatics.
So?
$3B in the defense industry? Does this creep know how much we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan every month?

Does it sound as if this person supposes that Israel is the destination of most or all of our war-related materiel in the world?
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" .. Cutting aid to Israel doesn't hurt Israel .."

Right in our faces - and in the faces of millons of Americans who starve even as nasty jewish settlers demand and get free money from our USA!
Does any other American - a hard working, red-bloodied American tax-payer and patriot of the star-spangled banner - read that as a denigration, and a challenge?

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"I find it ironic that the Israeli government wants no preconditions. Previously, the Israeli government insisted it would not negotiate with the Palestinians until the terrorism stopped. "

The terrorism has stopped. Sharon built a fence and started executing the Palestinian leadership. The odd suicide bomber cannot get into Israel easily and the leadership won't pack a mule if it puts their ass at risk. Sharon didn't go after the mules. He went after the leadership. That suicide thing is good for fools but not leaders. They didn't get to lead being stupid.

BiBi's posture is also smart politics. Joe called it Bibi- as-Gandi. He lost his post as Prime Minster in the 90's and has learned not to forget political imagery. Always present the face of a peacemaker.

Rarely has a leader been so well prepared for a job. Bill Clinton has suggested numberous times losing a governors race was the best thing for his political career because it hurt and he didn't want it to happen again.

rdw56-
The world community is massively corrupt and immoral.
Ah, yes, the only blood that matters is "righteous" Jewish blood. Creep. As for your pathetic attempt to paint the world's revulsion with the Israeli government as having anything whatsoever to do with its Jewish identity, I say again, creep. Anyone who doesn't unequivocally hate the policies of the Israeli government has a confused moral compass. As do you.

I am not jewish and I am not a creep. At least my Mommy says I'm not.

There is no world commnity We don't elect world leaders. The UN is totally corrupt on everything. They are useless and inept when they've not making things worse.

The only groups that speak for the people are democratically elected governments. The UN is majority dictatorship. Dictatorships are always massively corrupt. They do not speak for anyone aside their own corruption.

This has little to do with Israel. Look at Global Warming. It's a scam that interests the UN only because it's a scam worth billions. Forget the UN.

I agree that the UN is relatively insignificant and feckless. Its sole area of relevance is in delivering emergency aid, raising funding for development initiatives, etc. As a political, judicial body it has proved itself inept. With that said, the international community to which I referred is not the UN, but merely the international community (do I really have to explain the term?).
~~
So let me ask, what is your affinity towards Israel, beside your obvious twisted enjoyment in cheering on bloodshed, injustice, racism, and oppression? I mean honestly, there are a slew of major human rights abusers in the world for you to back. Why Israel?

rdw56: " .. Israel is quite safe. .."

I hesitate to ask this:
So how does the USA come in - if Israel, a superpower that eclipses Russia, UK, France ... - can obviously do quite well, militarily and diplomatically, on its own?

"So how does the USA come in - if Israel, a superpower that eclipses Russia, UK, France ... - can obviously do quite well, militarily and diplomatically, on its own?"

With 5M jewish citizens Israel is not going to defeat 60M France or 80M Germany or 140M Russia. But they are not going to attack Israel either. Russia was defeated by tribal Afghanistan. They're going to go after Israel? I think not.

" They're going to go after Israel? I think not."

You hope not.

You look at that so-called Jewish state as a superpower eclipsing Russia, UK, Germany and France - yet it is a pauper state relying on continuing goodwill and generosity of another power, the USA, for its very survival of their way of life as they know it.

You must be a jew to see integrity in that setup...

"yet it is a pauper state relying on continuing goodwill and generosity of another power,"

Israel has a strong high tech economy that since Sharon has been growing 2x's - 3x's the EU-3 and will pass them in per capita incomes by 2012. They will then hit $50,000 in per capital incomes before the EU-3 hit $40,000. That's a very substantial 25% gap that will continue to widen at a faster pace.

Israel is a tiny country with a superpower heart and superpower air force. Russia would crush Israel but would suffer greatly in doing so and they'd in turn be at risk to internal and external threats.

The political shrewdness of dealing with Fatah and Hamas in different ways is if either attacks Israel they get crushed and so severely weakened they might be finished off by their cousins. Hamas has to judge how much damage they can absorb knowing too much means Fatah will visit and they won't be worrying about the geneva accords. They will come in to exterminate Hamas. The world can be a complicated place.

" .. count us, and our money and our clout OUT ... for good ..
No more. Never Again. .."

We can do that.
Our constitution allows - in fact directs - us to put the welfare of Americans first, all Americans - including the lowly, starving, uninsured, homeless 50 million Americans - before we traipse around the world building houses on grabbed lands for foreign settlers, providing them with excellent health care, feeding them, stroking their bloated egos and tolerating their insolence.

" .. A new approach is called for. .."

Here is a suggestion: The hard-working, very-hard-working Americans must have a say and vote on each dollar of their tax-revenue that goes into Israel - directly and/or indirectly. After all we scrutinize and vote on our detailed city, county, state budgets

And we want to discuss and vote on that "special bond" between Israel and the USA which we hear so much about. When did that happen or are we all supposed to be Israeli? If so, were those framers of our constitution aware that some would render our USA subordinate to foreign sovereigns?

You support Israel without equivocation, without even a critical tone toward heavy-handed oppressive tactics, in fact you applaud them, simply because Israel is, arguably, better than Hamas? Is it not possible that both are morally bankrupt? That neither has any righteous justification for their complicity in the bloodshed? How can you so vehemently reject any semblance of rationality in suicide bombings, yet applaud Israel for a 150:1 kill ratio? How do you defend, how do you support, Israel's murder of 1500 Palestinians in Gaza in 3 week during Operation Cast Lead? 5000 wounded? 1000 Lebanese in 2006? These numbers are enormously greater than the number of Israelis killed by your so-called terrorists. So, who is the greater evil, rdw56? Your reasoning is absurd. You support Israel because Hamas has, in the past, targeted school buses and cafes with bombings that have killed civilians. Yet you ignore Israeli targeting of UN schools, humanitarian aid depots, hospitals, mosques, homes, infrastructure, water supplies, journalists, aid workers, civilian neighborhoods, etc. Are you really that delusional that you would overlook these ghastly affronts to humanity all because you loathe Hamas?

I do not support Israel without equivication. They're not perfect. But they don't target civilians. Hamas has promised to wipe out the Jews.

This isn't a hard call.

Nations and groups have to renounce terrorism in all it's forms before they can be considered civilized. Hamas is not civilized.

Israel is an amazing story. It's almost inconceivable a tiny nation of 5M can flourish in a sea of such hatred. How can you not a admire Israel?

But they [Israel] don't target civilians.
Lie. UNRWA humanitarian center in Gaza January 2009; Gaza City Hospital January 2009; Gaza City prison January 2009; various mosques throughout Gaza in January 2009; rampant bombing of civilian neighborhoods throughout December 2008 and January 2009; UN monitoring compound in southern Lebanon 2006. Considering all these arguments whereby you claim the technological supremacy and military advances of Israel, I find it implausible that these were all mistakes.
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Israel is an amazing story. It's almost inconceivable a tiny nation of 5M can flourish in a sea of such hatred. How can you not a admire Israel?
I really do not have the time for a history lesson, however I find it impossible to admire Israel for many reasons. First and foremost, the creation of Israel was illegitimate, unjust, and immoral. For over 1000 years Palestine was populated overwhelmingly by Arab Muslims. Following the holocaust, European guilt led to one of the most egregious international blunders of all time: the annexation of Palestinian lands to provide a homeland for European Jews. They came in waves following the Balfour Declaration of 1917. They immediately set themselves upon the British personnel overseeing the Mandate of Palestine. Terrorism was the norm, carried out by Irgun, Stern Gang, and Haganah, led by several future Israeli prime ministers. These terrorist ranks were absorbed by the newly created Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and their terrorist acts have been heralded as "freedom fighting" by successive Israeli regimes, including Netanyahu in 2006. This sickness and love of violence spawned the state of Israel and has never abated. What is there to be admired? A society which prides itself on the oppression of an entire people, that steals the land that it wishes, that falsely claims itself to be both Jewish and democratic, all carried out under the banner of God's will...No thank you.

" .. Israel is an amazing story. It's almost inconceivable a tiny nation of 5M can flourish in a sea of such hatred. .."

Well. Aren't you forgetting something significant?
Shouldn't the credit go to the USA without whom that story is not possible?
[May I warn you before you respond that most Americans are feeling increasingly irritated by Israel's borrowed bravado and intransigence that costs us dearly.. and we feel that Israelis dismiss us as suckers.]

Israel has several times taken 3 or more arab armies on at the same time and won. In the last 50 years Israel has done more to advance science than all of islam in the last 500 years.

This is their doing not the USA's They are only just recently 5M people. The odds are astonishing.

Make peace. It's the only way. Swap a few acres, Forget about coming back, you were not evicted, you left. Let the jews alone and they'll let you alone.

And how about the long overdue reformation? How is it everything gets discovered or invented in the west? How about muslims start doing their share?

All dictatorships are immoral.

" .. All dictatorships are immoral. .."

And worldly people soon learn - often the embarrassing way - to avoid sweeping statements.

I don't think Israel is perfect but I do think democracies should support one another. The amount of aid is a pittance but take it up with Jimmy Carter. I have no problem ending it.

The aid to israel was the most productive we've ever given. Besides the fact it's used to buy American products the Jew also serve as our beta test site. We have our own now but it was a valuable service.

If the next war isn't Southern Lebanon it'll be Gaza and this time the political goal might be to devastate Hamas to prepare the ground for Fatah to take over. Goldstone will be quite busy in that event.
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Here are my final thoughts, as I have come to the realization that you are psychotic and do not warrant any further wasting of my time. Your callous disregard for the lives of Palestinians and Lebanese, people who have done you no harm and the majority of whom have done no harm to Israel, puts you on par with the suicide bomber you so despise. Most Palestinians simply go about their lives, until the latest Israeli bombshell explodes in their living room. Time and time again this scenario has played out, with entire families killed in the name of self-defense. And you applaud this. You counter every criticism of Israel with a quick recount of their military prowess, their technological superiority, and their body-count. These are the measure of justice and probity in your feeble mind. Shameful.
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One of the remaining unforgettable images of 9/11 was the cheering in Palestine.
Or, if you were to have looked beyond the lens of the network cable sensationalism, were the images of dancing Israelis. Yes, I said it. Israel welcomed the assaults of 9/11 on the US. It brought American-Israeli alliance to its strongest point in history. Benjamin Netanyahu, September 12, 2001: "This is good for Israel." Your hero.
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But there are many more images of terrorism and almost all are of a Muslim mule blowing up an innocent child.
Actually, many of these images, whether actual or mental, are Israeli Mosad agents. It's called black-flag ops, and it is well documented. Israel has continually carried out terrorist operations around the world, in Egypt, India, UK, US, whereby her agents pose as Arab/Muslim Islamists to achieve a goal of subverting the image of Islam and simultaneously shoring up her own image as a defender against such extremism. Familiar with the Lavon Affair? 1955, Mossad agents were arrested attempting to sabotage British facilities in Egypt during US-UK-Egypt negotiations. The intent was to undermine the US's growing cooperation with Egypt by carrying out bombings to be reported as acts of the Muslim Brotherhood. This stratagem has reoccurred time and again, in India, for example. Or in the US with the assassination of a CIA agent in 2005. Or, the 200 Israeli agents arrested and deported, quietly, from the US between 2001 and 2008. Israel subverts the security of the United States on a daily basis for political gain. And you applaud this. You haven't a clue what you speak of. Your loyalties are treasonous.

" .. Your loyalties are treasonous. ..

Probably.

rdw56's all-out blind, desperate defense of Israel borders on the fanatical. [Much like Hasan's fanatic stance with regard to his religious identity ..]
And that makes me suspect that (s)he is a jew but either not American or an American operating outside the mainstream of American jewry.
All, or almost all (excluding JK and cabbagehammer), Jewish-Americans identify themselves as Americans first. That identification suggests that should the USA impose comprehensive sanctions against that foreign state of Israel, almost all Jewish-Americans will honor it. And should open military hostilities break out between the two states, almost all Jewish-Americans will fight alongside their American compatriots.

"almost all" except this rdw56 if he is American.

"And should open military hostilities break out between the two states, almost all Jewish-Americans will fight alongside their American compatriots."

Obama won't even suggest cutting aid and you have him placing sanctions on Israel and then going to war with Israel?

Huh?

He is President, not King. If he cuts aid there's a solid shot he gets over-ruled by Congress. He can't place sanctions because Congress will vote it down.

I am not jewish. I am a garden-variety, run of the mill conservative. I am thrilled GWB was so staunch in his support and so shrewd. He increased that aid 20% from $3B to $3.6B and signed an agreement to keep it there thru 2011. Obama can lower it but not secretly. Congress has to approve changes. So if Obama does want to lower it back to $3B we find out and he takes the same poliitcal hit as if he cut aid entirely.

Think about how shrewd that was of GWB. He's essentially set Obama's 1st term policy for him. Part of that program was an upgade of our figher jet sales. Israel got it's 1st shot at one of our newer models and was going to deliver 2 a month over a period of 36 a month. I believe at the same time all of their other jets were getting a new electronics package and fuel tanks so they could operate in Iran.

This doesn't include other deals. The Germans just delivered two dolphin class submarines a year ahead of schedule. That's 5 so far. This is what a strong economy enables.

We just celebrated the fall of the Berlin Wall. There's no question the fall of the USSR was the inevitable result of socialized economics versus capitalist economics. Capitalism grows at vastly superior rates and the differencial componds over time. Reagan buried Gorby as he promised.

Forget hostilities between Israel and the USA. Democracies don't go to war with each other. We sell each other the best weapons. Israel is probably going to add $12B to GDP this year. Gaza nothing. Israel will add $12,7B next year and $14B the next. Gaza will add nothing. That's almost $40B more per year by 2012. Since Israel spends about 7% of GDP this is $2.8B more for defense PER YEAR.

Hamas is going to suffer the same fate as the USSR. They simply cannot compete. Consider it from a productivity perspective. Thanks in large part to the US military-industrial complex operating at full speed the science of war is advancing rapidly. Productivity increases of 5% per year mean that kill ratio of 150-1 could be as hgh as 195-1 by 2014 and 260-1 by 2019.

Quite often a negotiated peace isn't possible. Someone has to win or both quit due to exhaustion. It appears Fatah has done the math. It's going to take years to lower the rhetoric and create the possibility of real peace but for now they've stopped the violence and are going to open the economy. The folks on the WB will be able to compare their quality of life to Gaza and know they made the right decision and eventually make a full peace. It appears unlikely Hamas will allow any of this. Reagan defeated the Soviet Union without firing a shot using patience and investment in defense. Gorby knew it was over. Hamas may never know but eventually they'll threaten Israel and/or Fatah and that will be the end.

There is no scenario under which a socialist economy can compete with capitalism. The NYTs today has a column professing bafflement Venezuela, which sits on an ocean of oil and has large hydo-supplies, suffers regular borwnout and blackouts. It's not confusing. Israel is using time as it's friend.

If Hamas is a "terrorist organization" even after renouncing suicide bombing in 2005, ostensibly due to its continued rocket attacks on Israel which do not target any specific military facilities or personnel, then, by this same measure, Israel employs the use of state-terrorism, due to its refusal to distinguish between military (militant) and civilian targets. In fact, its intentional strikes on schools, mosques, humanitarian aid centers, civilian neighborhoods, etc makes Israel worse than Hamas in that its targets are clearly civilian, whereas Hamas just shoots randomly. The disproportionate death rates are enough to make even the most hawkish mind a bit unnerved.

Wow RDW56 knows everything about the palisreal thingy I will never have to consult any other source for information. RDW56 is obviuosly on a first name basis with everyone involved. What a priceless resource.

RDW56, you are priceless. If only you had lived 230 years ago, you would have been right there with the British Aristocracy lamenting the incivility of the Americans and their guerilla warfare, while simultaneously pitying the poor american civilians whose poor choice in leadership led to their having to commit to asymmetrical warfare.

9/11 has nothing to do with Palestine. Osama Bin Laden didn't give a rat's ass about the Palestinians. Neither did Saddam.

The broader problem in the Middle East is the backward nature of Islam and the various cultures. You are the most backward people on the planet. Your last scientific achievement was 700 years ago. Osama and so many terrorists are bitter at the humiliation of being part of something so backward. Israel is an open sore because they are so small and so successful. I'm told if you fly over Israel you can see the borders because one side is green and the other desert. Per capita incomes in Israel are near $30K but if not for oil no other middle eastern nation would be above $10K.

cfukara,

you remind me of Obama at the UN waxing poetic about "all nations have the same interests' in what Joe Klein describe as his Rodney King phase. Obama is an airhead. Few nations have the same interests and Iran and the USA absolutely do not have the same interests.

If Hamas were to lay down it's arms and commit to peace there would be peace beween Israel and Gaza. If Israel were to lay down their arms Hamas would begin exterminating the jews.

RDW56~
I'm told if you fly over Israel you can see the borders because one side is green and the other desert.
Here's a thought, why don't you draw your fantastical conclusions from something you actually know, rather than what you have been told. I've been to Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, I can assure you that Israel is mostly desert. Only the coastline and the Galilee are lush. With that said, it is true that most of the West Bank is rocky and nonviable. Why? Not because of the Arab's backward culture, you imbecilic racist. It's because the Israeli imperialists diverted the Jordan River, the primary water source, away from the West Bank and into Israel. Your ignorant inhumanity, fickle intellectual capacity, and adoration of Israeli propaganda make you an extremely dangerous element. Your mentality is a disease in the world and a seditious threat to the United States.