A Republican Health Care Plan
Better late than never, I guess. While individual Republicans have offered proposals (and hundreds of amendments), there has been no real GOP alternative to the various health care bills that are working their way through Congress. Now, John Boehner says they are going to produce one. But when you look at what the House Minority Leader is describing as an "innovative" solution, you've got to wonder.
Specifically, he points to the kind of high-risk pools that many states have established for those who find themselves uninsurable as a result of a serious illness. That is not a new idea--some states have had these pools for three decades--or a solution for many. These pools already exist in more than 30 states, but they tend to be too expensive for those with limited means to buy into. And often, people cannot get into them for as long as a year after they apply.
When my brother developed kidney disease and his health insurance refused to pay to treat it, I looked into Texas' high-risk pool and discovered it would be far out of his reach, with premiums that typically run twice as expensive as regular insurance policies. California's high-risk pool has been a disaster, covering only 2% of the medically uninsurable.
It will be interesting to see what kind of solutions Boehner offers for the kinds of problems that have made these pools so ineffective in the states that have tried them.
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1
I expect leeches, bleeding the patient, and an examination of the humours. Plus, diagnosis by videotape.
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2
Don't hold your breath. The guy has to get tanned, play a round of golf and have a couple of smokes. After that .......
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3
Me, responding like I'm Pelosi (I'm dressed up like her right now BTW):
"Boner, ain't that f'ing special. Now, take your sh!t plan, go to the corner, and STFU! We have all the gavels and don't care what you Reaganite wankers have to say. We's going enact us some wonderful progressive legislation b/c, like, for sure, people tell me, that's what we were elected to do! So, sit back and watch us help the HIC, errr, uhhh, American people out."
I mean, where's a f'ing Pirate Wench when you need 'er! Argghhhh
PS, I'll have all of you not that it's 9pm in J-town, and nigh empty sake bottle is perfectly acceptable ... hiccup
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3.1
Firstly, can I preface this with "F'ing Yankees!"
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Wanted to agree with this from last night JC.
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4
"It will be interesting to see what kind of solutions Boehner offers for the kinds of problems that have made these pools so ineffective in the states that have tried them."
I'm going to go ahead and guess tax cuts.
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4.2
Funny. Accurate too, but funny.
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4.3
else TypeVerb = "dithering"
} endif -
4.4
LOL..................I was going to say "Say Ronald Reagan in the mirror 3 times)
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4.5
Ah Paul, but what sort of tax cuts? I am going to guess that he proposes to fix our health care system by getting rid of the inheritance tax.
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4.6
I hope they bring back Health Savings Accounts.
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Because it makes complete sense to make me save money I don't have to pay for health care I still can't afford.
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5
"That is not a new idea--some states have had these pools for three decades"
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As opposed to this???
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http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/
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I too am dissapointed that the Republicans despite being totally locked out of the discussions regarding health care reform by the Democrats, have not simply come out with their own plan.
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But during the "address to Congress", didn't the Republicans have a plan in hand that they kept waving at Obama? Did you ever check that out Karen? Was it just a prop or was it an actual plan?
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I guess you can simply say that they were waiting for the Democrat plan to be published once Nancy and Company put all of the goodies into their bill. Now, debate shall ensue. I think that is how it works in Washington. Right Karen?
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Someone proposes legislation, debated on the floor, and voted on. Admendments are proposed and voted up or down before there is a final vote. I think that is how it works in Washington. Right Karen?
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But, maybe they are simply waiting like Obama is waiting to decide on his strategy in Afghanistan and the need to increase the troop levels. Perhaps they are waiting for a strike of lightining or devine intervention.
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Or, one could suppose that they are all waiting to see the outcome of the elections tomorrow around the country. Perhaps how badly the Democrats are doing and it is a call from the voters that "change we can believe in" is not the type of "change" we were looking for.-
5.1
It was a prop. There was no plan, and there has been no plan, outside a couple of offerings earlier this year by individual Republicans. (See my link.)
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5.2
Also, the Massachusetts program is still relatively popular there, despite some recent slippage:
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http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/09/28/support_for_mass_health_insurance_overhaul_drops_but_is_still_strong/ -
5.3
Hah, rusty. You are nothing if not consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent none-the-less.
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5.4
I have to admit I was pretty shocked to see Boehner pointing to high-risk pools as an innovative idea, given that they have had such problems and been so unworkable in the real world. When they come up with their plan, the first thing I am going to look for is whether they have some fresh ideas for making these things work any better than they do.
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5.5
http://www.gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/06-17-09_House__GOP_Solutions__Group__Outline.pdf
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http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/17/news/economy/republican_health_care_bill/index.htm
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http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52896 Empowering Patients First Act (Republican Study Committee Health Care Reform Bill, introduced July 30, 2009)
Improving Health Care for All Americans Act (Shadegg Health Care Reform Bill, introduced July 14, 2009)
Medical Rights & Reform Act (Kirk-Dent Health Care Reform Bill, introduced June 16, 2009)
Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act (Gingrey medical liability reform bill, introduced June 6, 2009)
Small Business Health Fairness Act of 2009 (Johnson small business health plans bill, introduced May 21, 2009)
Promoting Health and Preventing Chronic Disease through Prevention and Wellness Programs for Employees, Communities, and Individuals Act of 2009 (Castle Wellness & Prevention Bill, introduced July 31, 2009)
Improved Employee Access to Health Insurance Act of 2009 (Deal auto-enrollment bill, introduced October 15, 2009)
Health Insurance Access for Young Workers and College Students Act of 2009 (Blunt bill to improve health insurance coverage of dependents, introduced October 21, 2009)
http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare
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I guess none of these are not plans, right Karen?
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Or are they plans that you as a reporter for TIME, who spreads lies instead of reporting on the truth simply do not deem to be plans? Right Karen? -
5.6
if ( TypeParty == "R") then
TypeVerb = "waiting" -
5.7
KT, by "shocked" you mean this way right?
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5.8
Rusty: That's not a plan. It's a grab bag. As Boehner himself acknowledged yesterday:
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Boehner added that this party intends to take eight or nine different ideas for health care reform currently available on http://www.healthcare.gop.gov and craft them into a single bill that Republicans will propose an alternative to the Democratic bill unveiled last Thursday.
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http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/11/01/boehner-promises-gop-health-care-bill/ -
5.9
One more time...
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if ( TypeParty == "R") then
{ TypeVerb = "waiting"
} else { TypeVerb = "dithering"
} endif -
5.10
K-Bang, you been drinking too? And in your time zone!?
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5.11
HEALTH CARE AND THE GOP
House Minority Leader Rep. John Boehner (R-OH) on CNN's “State of the Union”
Boehner: “We are going to have a proposal.”King: “You will have a proposal?”
Boehner: “And I would hope that the Speaker would allow us to have a debate and vote on our proposal.”
King: “And it will be a bill? I'll be able to stack the two up side by side?”
Boehner: “Go to Healthcare.GOP.GOV and look at the eight or nine proposals that we have that we expect to make part of, as a part together, our substitute.”
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5.12
Hey Rusty, ask KT is she has seen a plan from the Messiah. He has talked for months about HC reform or was it Health Insurance reform? But never really presided a full plan. I guess its his equivalent to voting presernt.
KT:What is new in the Demos plan? Higher taxes? And speaking of higher taxes have you noticed or at least acknowledged it, NYC and NY state is getting a first hand economics lessons in taxing high income folks. Also, there is $60 billion in Medicare fraud compared to $6 billion in health insurance profit. Who really is the inefficient nightmare of HC. HINT: Its not HC insurance companies
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5.13
5.8
Rusty: That's not a plan. It's a grab bag.
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5.14
"Also, the Massachusetts program is still relatively popular there, despite some recent slippage:"
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Yes you are correct that the overall favorability of the Mass Healthcare Plan is supported, by the liberals from Mass.
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However, you apparently did not read through the Boston.com article I posted as well.
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The Mass Plan is totally UNSUSTAINABLE.
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Perhaps the "slippage" is due to the fact that since inception of the plan, cost in particular to the middle class in Mass has now gotten so expensive people in Mass are dropping their "government option" insurance.
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Costs are sky-rocketing in just 3 years...
,"For an individual earning $31,213, the cheapest plan can cost $9,872 in premiums and out-of-pocket payments. Low-income residents, previously eligible for free care, have insurance policies requiring unaffordable copayments for office visits and medications."
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"In another case, a divorced mother stopped treatment for her son because the father had changed insurance, leaving them with an unaffordable deductible. And at Cambridge Health Alliance, doctors and nurses have cared for patients who, unable to afford the new copayments, were forced to interrupt care for HIV and even cancers that could be treated with chemotherapy."
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But, the article does cite on insurance that is still "affordable", and is similiar to what the Democrats have proposed. Medicare. However, we all know that in a few years, Medicare will be gone. Just recently it has been reported that Medicare has a 37 TRILLION dollar deficit coming by around 2018 or so.
."She highlighted to examples, “First, the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund helps cover the cost of beneficiaries' hospital stays and related care. Today, the fund spends more than it takes in and we make up the difference using assets from the fund. But in 2017 – eight years from now – those assets will be exhausted if we don't do something."
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http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/2009/20090512-MedicareHospitalTrust.htm
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You see ladies and gentlemen, it all looks good on paper. However, if it is not sustainable in the long run, what good is it?
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Perhaps you can have it for what, 2 or 3 years at best like in Massachusettes? Perhaps when your current employer sees that it would be better to dump you from the company insurance plan you have now in favor of the government option you can rely on the government option for 2 or 3 years. Then what?
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The Democrat Plan will then be "Die Quickly!!!". We don't have any more money to pay into the fund for you" -
5.15
"Rusty: That's not a plan. It's a grab bag. As Boehner himself acknowledged yesterday:"
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Yes Karen, perhaps it is not all folded together into a 1990 page bill that no one can barely read and understand.
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Perhaps the problem that one can take from all of this is that Health Care Reform (HCR) is so big of a problem, that to do it all in one huge bill as the democrats have proposed is simply ridiculous.
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Perhaps we simply need to encourage our Representatives to take the time, and put reforms into place that first do not cost the tax payer anything. Then go for the other parts of the bill that offer potential savings and insure those who do not have insurance now.
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Typical Democrat policy is to create this huge monstrosity and throw everything at it. Especially as I pointed out we already have an example like the Democrat Plan in Mass already that we know is not sustainable.
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It comes down to plain common sense. Something that the liberal media lacks, and the liberals in Congress have never had. -
5.16
I read an article a couple of months ago that focused on the people the Massachusetts plan was supposed to help -- the previously uninsured. I haven't been able to find it again (maybe one of Karen's researchers can find it) but it told a very different story from the broad brush, "we're happy with the change", articles that are so popular.
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The number of poor people who had insurance but were unable to access care due to cost concerns was quite high; as was the number who had incurred medical debt since getting coverage.
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The solution to our out of control health expeditures does not lie in extending the dysfunctional model that is bankrupting individuals, companies, and the government. Competition among insurance companies -- whether in exchanges, across state lines, or with or without a public option --will not change the underlying problem.
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The entire discussion about health care reform has been a sham because it hasn't focused on reforming the financing model at all. Law makers, policy makers, and journalists have all been complicit in avoiding the hard issues in favor of talking about process.
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6
KT
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I doubt that Boner will actually offer up a plan, to me this sounds just like every OTHER time they said they would offer a plan and the media dutifully reported that they said they would offer one but didn't really punch them in the mouth for lying when one never emerged. Here is all that I ask. That before the House bill is voted on you call Boner's office and ask where the hell his bill is. And if he actually produces one ask him where the CBO scoring is. And really and truly I would love for you to press him on that issue.
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See this whole year the Republicans have fallen in love with CBO scores as they fear monger about the debt. If they just so happen to come up with some bullsh*t that they throw together and call a "plan" then it should be fully scored and that score put up for the 72 hours that they demanded the Democratic plan be put online. Otherwise they should be held up to shame and ridicule for lying. Yes I said LYING to the American people once again about being for health care reform. -
7
Was it just a prop or was it an actual plan?
Some questions just answer themselves. If the Republicans were actually interested in a plan, they'd have published it by August, so they'd actually have something to sell at those town halls. As it is, fear and hatred are the only things they have to offer and the only people buying are the true-believers.
It's a damn shame too, because we actually need a sane opposition party. But the sane people are busy being pushed out to make room for the zealots.
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7.1
Apparently the sane Republicans are supporting the Democrats these days.
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7.2
"so they'd actually have something to sell at those town halls"
When you opponent is in a hole you offer them a shovel not a ladder. The Peloser plan just kept digging.
I do agree with you we need sane opposition when you find one sane Demo let us know. Dang an oxymoron again. Sorry
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7.3
5.8
"Rusty: That's not a plan. It's a grab bag."
KT I see now that Time is circling the drain you are trying your hand at comedy. What is that 2000 page nightmare of the Liberals if not a grab bag of giveaways to special interest groups.
Saturday Night Live should be calling any day now.
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7.4
fhmadvocat
Health care is not a right not matter how you try to twist it. using that same logic, should we not provide a house for anyone who wants its. Of course the liberal answer is yes. I would be careful wandering down the path of public safety. What actions will the become subject to "HC reform" under the guise of public safety? We see the nonsense over cigarette smoking (hmm whatever happended to the billions paid to states for health care from that trial lawyer bonanza?) and the provision for disclosure on vending machines in the new bill.
"They are upset that some illegal immigrant will have to buy and pay for his or her own insurance and may use that insurance to have a $100 visit with a primary care physician. The GOP would rather pay for the $500 visit to the emergency room, which is ultimately paid with our tax dollars."
I am impressed that you didn't refer to them as undocumented immigrants which is equivalent to calling drug dealers, unlicensed pharmacists. However you, as liberals do miss the true point. Conservatives would rather see the law enforced and have the illegals that are here returned ans start the process to immigrate legally. Just another inconvenient law liberals tend to ignore.
If you think health care is expensive wait until its free
PJ O'Roarke
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8
We should make sure the Republican plan is CBO'd. No if, ands or buts. My guess is that Boner will produce bs and call it "wealth care".
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8.2
Will Nancy wait for a CBO score? I think she has a time to get the bill voted on.
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Republicans trying to delay the inevitable. -
8.3
Nancy can't wait for fear of dithering.
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8.4
Karen - He and the rest of the Republicans also promised an actual bill. We see where that went, from the moment they first said 'we'll propose an alternative!'.
And Boehner had the gall to insist too that ONLY Republicans had ever proposed some kind of workable alternative, when they haven't even made a bill or cohesive plan yet, even up to that speech.
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9
"medically uninsurable"
This phrase is offensive, even if it's a more kind and gentle way of telling people that their lives aren't worth saving.
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9.1
"This phrase is offensive, even if it's a more kind and gentle way of telling people that their lives aren't worth saving."
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That's what I get out that phrase too. You have a injury or illness we deem to expensive to treat. So good luck with the bake sale. We are little busy bailing out Goldman Sachs right now. -
9.2
Yup.
Since the only thing that seems to matter is how much everything costs, I'd like to see the CBO score the value of a human life.
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9.3
medically uninsurable"
It's offensive to you because you confuse the term insurance for entitlement. Insurance is a risk pool that places a probability that the premiums collected will at least equal those paid out. What liberals suggest is an open ended entitlement funding for medical causes regardless of the risk.
Here is a clue those who will be forced to pay ultimately for those costs will be those who can least afford it, regarless of the trash Peloser is peddling.
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9.4
Yep, liberals think that life-saving medical care for American citizens is an entitlement, sort of like how we're entitled to police protection from murderers, fire fighters trying to save us from our burning homes, and not starving in our elder years when we're unable any longer to work.
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Guilty as charged: we value the lives of our fellow Americans because we love our country. -
9.5
It's offensive to you because you confuse the term insurance for entitlement.
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Nope, it's that you are confusing the term health insurance with health care.
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Insurance is a risk pool that places a probability that the premiums collected will at least equal those paid out.
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So?
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What liberals suggest is an open ended entitlement funding for medical causes regardless of the risk.
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Sounds great!
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(and as a side note, while risk assessment is important for insurance companies, I'm not sure how having survived breast cancer is a disqualifies coverage for a trip to the emergency room after a car accident...)
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...those who will be forced to pay ultimately for those costs will be those who can least afford it...
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And that is different that what currently is happening exactly how? -
9.6
stuartzechman
And how noble it would be if we were only discussing "life-saving" medical treatment. As you are aware as anyone, this bill (or any that we have been privileged to see) is filled with far more than that with the resulting higher taxes, lower services and just excessive meddling. Note: the vending machine provisions. Or covering illegal immigrants.
And once the cookie jar is open, do the math we will have a country that is bankrupt to support this entitlement.
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9.7
correction, should read: I'm not sure how having survived breast cancer disqualifies coverage for a trip to the emergency room after a car accident...
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9.8
"Nope, it's that you are confusing the term health insurance with health care."
No Its Obama who did that by first campaigning to reform health care then he chose to demonize health insurance. And contrary to liberal belief health care are goods and services not a right.
"Insurance is a risk pool that places a probability that the premiums collected will at least equal those paid out.
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So?" WOW Profundity from another liberal but it does show the some and substance of liberal thought on health care-- I want it dammit and I don't care who else has to pay for it!"I'm not sure how having survived breast cancer is a disqualifies coverage for a trip to the emergency room after a car accident...)"
More an indictment of how little you know about the insurance industry than anything else. And if hurt in a car accident, the auto coverage kicks in before any health care insurance.
"...those who will be forced to pay ultimately for those costs will be those who can least afford it...
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And that is different that what currently is happening exactly how?"Well if you can't afford it now you don't have insurance, with "HC reform" if you don't buy it you get fined and/or jailed for it. Or you have the possibility of buying it on your way to the hospital which is equivalent to buying home owners insurance after your house burns down. Which is fraud. An issue liberal seem to have no issue with in their pursuit of bankrupting the country.
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9.9
No Its Obama who did that by first campaigning to reform health care then he chose to demonize health insurance.
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Actually, Obama is playing too nice concerning the health insurance industry. Me, I've been demonizing the health insurance industry for much, much longer...
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And contrary to liberal belief health care are goods and services not a right.
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Responses:
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(1) Ah, but your own health is not a good or service.
....(1a) How much is your life worth, freeper? More or less than the lifetime maximum your insurance company plan allows for?
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(2) Do you believe in the following:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I want it dammit and I don't care who else has to pay for it!
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Oh, I'm happily paying for it, freeper...for that matter, I'm paying for you as well.
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And if hurt in a car accident, the auto coverage kicks in before any health care insurance.
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There's so many problems with that statement that I'm not gonna bother...Plus, the point is that denying coverage based on the risk of having a prior condition also denies coverage for health events that have nothing to do with that prior condition. Going back to a prior point, it's another way to tell the 'medically uninsurable' that their lives are not worth saving.
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Well if you can't afford it now you don't have insurance, with "HC reform" if you don't buy...
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Senseless blather. -
9.10
grape_crush
"Me, I've been demonizing the health insurance industry for much, much longer.."
Just like a liberal to be wrong. Medicare payment fraud $60 billion- Health insurance company profits $6 billion. So are you against your own solution?
"Oh, I'm happily paying for it, freeper...for that matter, I'm paying for you as well."
And exactly how are you doing that? Or this another self evident delusional truth all liberals have? You have all the rights freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution but that does not mean everyone needs to pay for anything else for you.
"There's so many problems with that statement that I'm not gonna bother...Plus, the point is that denying coverage based on the risk of having a prior condition also denies coverage for health events that have nothing to do with that prior condition. Going back to a prior point, it's another way to tell the 'medically uninsurable' that their lives are not worth saving"
Again oblivious to what health insurance and risk pools entail and your argument reverts back I want it . dammit.
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9.11
freeinpa made the following statement:
And contrary to liberal belief health care are goods and services not a right.
I think he was making a statement regarding health insurance. If so, he is exactly right.
It is also the reason we need a public health option. The insurance companies have been given a bad name, but in truth, insurance companies have worked to keep health care costs down. The problem is when they refuse to pay for a medical procedure, they are accused of "denying care".
But we need to realize that insurance companies are in business to make money, not to help people. If they make money helping people, that's great, but helping people is secondary.
That is why we need the public option, because the market is not a solution, but an impediment. Some things are not left to the market, like the military or public safety. Medical care is similar to public safety.
If you are in critical accident, you don't have time to decide which hospital to go to and a hospital is not going to take the time to decide whether to treat you on the basis of whether you have insurance or not (at least, we hope a hospital is not going to be concerned with this in a critcal emergency.
The purpose of the public option is to cover those whom the insurance industry will not cover. It makes sense to have those costs covered and spread through 300 million taxpayers as compared to the few covered by an insurance company.
Rationed care? If you have insurance, you already have rationed care.
Higher costs? When the uninsured get treatment, someone pays the bill. The hospital often passes this bill to those of us who are insured, so our insurance company pays a higher bill. The insurance company passes that cost to us in premiums. So you are taxed on both ends. By the government to cover those with Medicaid or Medicare or by the insurance company though your premiums.
Illegal immigrants? This is my favorite and the reason that Republicans are out of step with reality. They are upset that some illegal immigrant will have to buy and pay for his or her own insurance and may use that insurance to have a $100 visit with a primary care physician. The GOP would rather pay for the $500 visit to the emergency room, which is ulimately paid with our tax dollars. Truly they are penny wise and pound foolish.
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9.12
Just like a liberal to be wrong.
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About what? You've done nothing so far but offer weak logic and right-whinge babble.
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Medicare payment fraud $60 billion- Health insurance company profits $6 billion.
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Again with the weak logic. Comparing Medicare payment fraud to health insurance company profits are an invalid comparison, freeper. If you were interested in being honest, you would have compared insurance fraud for public and private organizations...you would have found that there is a fraud problem for both.
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So are you against your own solution?
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What is that supposed to mean? Because fraud is committed against Medicare, I'm supposed to be against Medicare?
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How 'bout this: I'm anti-fraud and support better law enforcement.
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And exactly how are you doing that?
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And you accuse me of knowing nothing about insurance or risk pools.
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Again oblivious to what health insurance and risk pools entail..
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I'm not oblivious, freeper. I just don't care.
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...your argument reverts back I want it . dammit.
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My argument is that letting an insurance company determine what a person's life is worth is a moral abomination...If defending health insurance companies is the hill conservatives want to die on, then go right ahead and make your stand.
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10
Karen, thanks for sharing about your brother. I had to sell my small business in Chicago because I became seriously ill and could not afford health care. It seems that anyone who has been through the health care system or has a family member who became ill supports wide range reform.
We understand that the GOP is opposed to anything Obama, and therefore is fundamentally opposed to health care reform no matter what they say. High-risk pools are the latest example of how out of touch they are with the real world in big cities where working class families are struggling.
I think of the thousands of families that do hot have health insurance and it brings me back to the long dark nights of knowing there was something very wrong with me but having no where to turn. So while people like Rusty and Freinpa get there white robes all in a tussle with irrelevant babble for show, we know that all citizens deserve health coverage no matter what race or income level, not just the white rich and fortunate.
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10.1
"So while people like Rusty and Freinpa get there white robes all in a tussle with irrelevant babble for show, we know that all citizens deserve health coverage no matter what race or income level, not just the white rich and fortunate."
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Speaking in the liberal "tongue" again, octa?
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"Conservatives are all just racists". Good way to bring further discourse and discussion to an already complicated problem.
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Third grade name calling, no matter the form is not beneficial for anyone. Especially those who truly do need reform to happen. People like you are simply the problem, and never the solution. -
10.2
Name calling, race card. Liberals chambers are empty. Their idiotic ideas hit the reality of the American public so the only option in their playbook is to denigrate and name call and try to cower any voice of sanity. Hmm not unlike the WH keeps trying. Which is then quickly followed by whining.
Note Steve Murphy, a Dumo strategist, whining about have to debate 2 conservative women yesterday and how unfair it was. Conservatives would love odds that close on any MSM show.
The flushing sound continues
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11
Do I sense anger in the air this morning?
I think when people are emotionaly speaking politics they need to take a hard look at what they are saying. The far right is et to win a few elections, crab some attention, but over all will just not accomplish much. People want action not talk, people want results, doing less is not results. It sounds all very good, but when the infrastructer of the society crumbles what then?
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11.1
No not "anger", allthinginaname. Simply calling out Karen Tumulty, a liberal journalist employed by TIME who attempts to say crap like this and get away with it...
."Better late than never, I guess. While individual Republicans have offered proposals (and hundreds of amendments), there has been no real GOP alternative to the various health care bills that are working their way through Congress."
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You see Karen does not hide her liberal views and opinions. However I think she forgets at times that her personal opinions are no different than organizations like Fox News, who have been denouced, are also the same tactics she uses right here in the Swamp. I'm simply pointing out her liberal biases as they are written. Also to show that even with her liberal bias, she is still wrong about the direction that health care reform should be taken.
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So many on here want to call out Fox and call them an illegitimate News organization just like Obama has declared war on Fox as well. When in fact there are opinion shows on Fox that are conservative, and liberal reporters like Karen Tumulty at TIME/CNN.
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The hypocrisy is almost deafening. Don't you think? -
11.2
Note that Rusty makes no attempt to contradict Karen's factually accurate claims. Facts mean nothing to today's conservatives. If a fact, argument, or source of facts produces negative emotions in a conservative, he labels it "liberal," and refuses to consider it.
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In that regard, today's conservatives are quite a bit like the victims of politically correct education that they were concerned with about 15 years ago. Students were, supposedly, rewarded for parroting liberal pieties, regardless of what was going on in the world. It's uncertain how much of a danger liberal political correctness ever was in the real world, but conservative refusal to engage with reality sure is a huge problem for them today. -
11.3
Rusty you may call it crap, others would call it the truth. It is not a personal attack against you, but the party you support. Allthough that comes into question with the far right if they support the Party or not.
This whole things reminds me of the 60's when the radicals revolted against the establishment, and brought great ( pun) candidates like McGovern, and the Democrates roamed in the wilderness.
Simply being anti isn't enough, you have to have something to support.
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11.4
Liberlals call it truth. But they spend their whole lives lying to themselves. For instance, the new HC bill is deficit neutral er er except that once bill we pulled out. Or no abortions paid by federal funds. Or we created or saved 650,000 jobs which I think was the number calculated by Obama's proctologist. Even Biden couldn't say that with a straight face.
Liberals have been lying since the start of this debate, they just can't stand that they can't do it with impunity any more.
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11.5
Here is the problem freeinpa you say Liberals call it truth, I said others call it truth. The truth is that all people who disagree with your policies are Liberals to you.
George Will makes a big deal out of the amount of people who self ID with being conservative is on the rise. What he doesn't say, and can't say is what does it mean to be a conservative to those people mean?
Do I control my budget? Do I over extend my credit cards? Do I save? Do I live within my means? Am I looking for a hand out from the Government? Am I willing to pay my Taxes? Have I served in the Military? The way I would answer these questions I would say that I am a conservative.
Do I support Health Care reform? You bet. So now I am a Liberal.
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11.6
So what you are saying if do do what is right and responsible you are conservative. So conversely those who don't are liberals? The questions of living responsibly is the limiting factor in being a conservative. There are other attributes as to what one expects from society and the role of government is a large factor.
The use of doing what's right gives liberals a false impression that they are moderates .
Despite what you may have guessed, I support heath care reform but none of the nonsense I have heard to date would qualify as that. My children and grandchildren will pay dearly for this nonsensical attempt by fools in the spirit of doing good in the name of health care.
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11.7
"So what you are saying if do do what is right and responsible you are conservative"
No that is what you are saying. Don't put words in my mouth please.
What I am saying is that conservative values are perhaps changing and the far right is having a problem with that.
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11.8
"The way I would answer these questions I would say that I am a conservative"
Your words not mine.
Conservative values haven't changed that is the realm of liberals and moral relativism.
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11.9
Conservative values haven't changed that is the realm of liberals and moral relativism.
Ha, Ha, values have changed since the creation. Who are you kidding, from the moral authority of the Roman Catholic Church, from the earth as the center of the universe, from the earth being flat, through any number of reformations, religious revolts, political revolts, values are always changing.
Only in the mind of the far right does time, values, science not change.
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12
Wow real health care reform must be gaining steam. The trolls are thrashing and gnashing and clicking their piles of bones together something mighty this morning.
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13
[...] the original post: A Republican Health Care Plan – Swampland – TIME.com Tags: care-bills, gop, have-offered, the-various, there-has, various, way-through, working-their [...]
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14
[...] Link: A Republican Health Care Plan – Swampland – TIME.com [...]
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15
Karen according to this Republicans may be late.
Do have any news on this?Pelosi poised to release the bill today and three day waiting period to vote. No amendments and no debate.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/65789-pelosi-prepares-for-healthcare-plunge
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15.1
My latest guidance is that the bill will not reach the floor until Friday at the earliest, and more likely, early next week.
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15.2
Thank you Karen, I had not seen this any where else.
I did hear or see that Nancy wanted to have the vote before the Veterans break.
.
This is off topic and to my thinking a little late but have you seen these charts that Ezra Klein has posted?
.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/an_insurance_industry_ceo_expl.html
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-
16
Politics is about optimism, hope, dreams, and the future. But what the Party of No is selling is pure political nihilism.
The GOP doesn't just say "No" to the Democrats and obstructing their legislative agenda. They go much further. The underlying message of the GOP is, and has been for decades, that we simply can't solve problems in a way that helps everybody. We aren't all in it together. It's everybody for themselves and the GOP is out to protect their tribe.
If you look at almost any issue, the GOP goes out of its way to craft positions that are going to annoy liberals and make perceived liberal stakeholders (e.g. the poor, plaintiff's lawyers, unions) suffer. Like supporting nuclear power over wind and solar...unless it is off Martha's Vineyard and going to annoy the Kennedys.
It isn't that the GOP doesn't have a solution to the health care crisis. They just don't recognize that there is a crisis.
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16.1
Yes there is never any amount of someone else's money liberals aren't willing to spend and of course it is all for heart wrenching causes. Pick any Demo legislature and it ends with "for the children", which is French for hold on to your watch and wallet.
"If you look at almost any issue, the GOP goes out of its way to craft positions that are going to annoy liberals and make perceived liberal stakeholders (e.g. the poor, plaintiff's lawyers, unions) suffer. Like supporting nuclear power over wind and solar...unless it is off Martha's Vineyard and going to annoy the Kennedys."
And conversely almost any issue Liberals go out of their way to craft positions to annoy conservatives or the liberals perceived conservative stakeholders (corporations and people providing 95% of the taxes collected) to re-distribute it unions, plaintiff lawyers etc.
And just what was wrong with having wind and solar off Martha' Vineyard? Seems the Kennedy's are grousing about the poor and energy. Just another case of liberal elites with some one else's money and not to inconvenience them.
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16.2
freeinpa,
There is a difference between "Liberal" and "Conservative" when it comes to Congress . . . . . . . .
Liberals believe in "tax and spend" so they take our taxes and redistribute them . . . . . . . .
Conservative believe in "no tax and spend" so they run up record deficits. Just like Dick Chaney said, "Reagan proved deficits don't matter . . . . . "
Another reason to elect Liberals instead of Conservatives . . . . . . . .
When it comes to spending my money, I would much rather have professionals (Liberals) spend my money rather than amateurs (Conservatives).
Why would I want to elect a Conservative to Congress? Why would I want to elect someone who believes government is the "problem"? Electing Conservative is the equivalent of appointing a Marxist to run a corporation. Would you want a CEO who did not believe in Capitalism?
The problem is that Republicans don't know how to govern. Now Democrats can govern, sometimes poorly, sometimes well, but Republicans really don't know what they are doing most of the time. Let them go back to running businesses where they belong and leave the governing to those who know what they are doing.
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16.3
fhmadvocat
"When it comes to spending my money, I would much rather have professionals"
You statement is the one true difference between a conservative and a liberal; I prefer me in how my money is spent. Liberals think anything someone earns is the government and its through their generosity I get to keep any portion of what I earn.
And yes I note the professionalism with which they spend money on Medicare (how much fraud?) Amtrak, Post Office, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac (Two of the true culprits in the financial crisis), ACORN, NEA. Yes the professionalism goes on and on.
"Would you want a CEO who did not believe in Capitalism?"
Excellent question! Why would we want a President that is attempting to remake over 15% of the economy (HC, Autos, Financials) who doesn't believe in capitalism but in redistribution. To paraphase you why have someone fix capitalism who thinks capitalism is the problem?
As to why elect someone who believes government is the problem? That is the simplest concept that escapes the vaunted liberal intelligence. They know what the problems are and what the limits are and do not believe that more taxes and regulation will answer those problems. NYC & NY are getting a whale of an economics education as earners leave and they continue to tax. It comes as a surprise only to a 6 yr old and liberals.
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17
[...] more from the original source: A Republican Health Care Plan – Swampland – TIME.com Health, Uncategorized [...]
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18
…I'm still waiting for the Sarah Palin Health Care Plan Also[tm]. And how can there be a 100% private HC system that treats everyone regardless of income – let alone an insurance system that does same (the two ARE separate, even if insurance cos. do make medical decisions without a license, sorry KT for bringing THAT up again).
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19
[...] Time’s Karen Tumulty reacted, “But when you look at what the House Minority Leader is describing as an “innovative” solution, you’ve got to wonder. Specifically, he points to the kind of high-risk pools that many states have established for those who find themselves uninsurable as a result of a serious illness. That is not a new idea–some states have had these pools for three decades–or a solution for many. These pools already exist in more than 30 states, but they tend to be too expensive for those with limited means to buy into. And often, people cannot get into them for as long as a year after they apply.” [...]
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20
"When they come up with their plan, the first thing I am going to look for is whether they have some fresh ideas for making these things work any better than they do."
.
Karen, I love your work. I really do. But you seem to earnestly believe that Republicans are serious about governing the country. How is that still possible? -
21
KT:
.
I love how the rightists go straight back to working the refs:"Oh noes! Time's reporters must all be left-wing liberals...that's the only way that that they could report the information and arrive at the conclusions they do when reporting on the health care debate. Liberals! Liberal! Liberal Media! Liberal! Bias! Somebody get an editor on this!"
Why shouldn't they, I suppose...I mean, working the refs has largely succeeded for the past 15 years, so why shouldn't they keep doing it?
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21.1
You confuse with working the refs with the refs being the players but pretending to be otherwise (I think you folks call that lying here). And it has worked for over 40 years but the tide is turning and the whining by the left increases daily.
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21.2
"Hypocrit" that is all I shall say to your little diatribe, stuart.
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No one on this site shouts any louder than you do when Klein goes into one of his so-called "centrist" meme's.
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Go blow it out from where the sun doesn't shine.
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22
Aw, c'mon - you should all know what the gop solution to the health care issue is....TAX CUTS! It's the one size fits all solution to everything!
I'm not holding my breath for any kind of actual solutions from the republicans. I've given up on them completely.
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23
You must mean the past 40 years of "conservative" dominance of government. Let's hope the tide is finally turning before they take us any farther down the sh*tter.
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23.1
I can't tell what is more in error your history or math?. The liberals ran a reign of terror in Congress for decades in the 60's and 70's and part of the 80's. During that time there was Kennedy, Johnson, Carter as Presidents
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23.2
Except of course, none of those Democrats happened to be liberals. Meanwhile, 28 of those 40 years had Republican presidents. But that's what happens when you get your "facts" from other "conservatives".
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23.3
One of those Republican presidents, Richard Nixon, along with Henry Kissinger, touched off a 'reign of terror' by contributing to the destabilizing Cambodia.
I thought Rush Limbaugh wrote that words have meaning. Apparently not anymore.
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24
I generally never hear anything from Boehner that makes too much sense. I think he got elected on the “Movie Star Look alike” platform.
Seriously, anytime I hear him speak, I expect him to burst into song and then hop on a horse and ride away to some “movie western” music.Nothing new in his proposed amendments to the Health care plan? GASP??? Emm, not really--quite expected empty rambles
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25
rusty;
"Especially as I pointed out we already have an example like the Democrat Plan in Mass already that we know is not sustainable."
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As a clarification of the facts:
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Regardless of the success or failure of the Massachusetts health care plan, it was then REPUBLICAN Governor Mitt Romney, who signed the legislation in April of 2006. REPUBLICAN Governor Romney was the bill's chief engineer. (This is easy to check if you care to).
.
Accurate facts would be appreciated.
- ktumulty freshman senators are on the senate floor trying to put more "reform" in the health bill. will they get 60 votes? #hcr http://bit.ly/8HTPuq - 12 hours ago
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