The J Street Controversy
Jeff Goldberg has a good interview with Jeremy Ben-Ami, the leader of J Street--which is a liberal Israel-advocacy group that has been under vicious assault from right-wing Jewish extremists (who've conducted a disgraceful campaign to discourage elected officials from attending J Street's upcoming convention).
Ben-Ami seems perfectly mainstream reasonable to me. You wonder what the fuss has been all about.
The bright line here, it seems to me, is between those, like Ben-Ami, who really want to see a successful two-state negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians--in other words, the majority of American Jews--and those who prefer the festering status quo, even though they pretend to favor negotiations (the Likudnik position). Those who have been demonizing J Street seem well outside the essential traditions of Judaism, as described by Senator Joe Lieberman, in a Daniel Pearl Memorial speech reprinted on the Commentary website:
Daniel Pearl's legacy is a powerful one, precisely because he embodied so many of the best values and convictions of our country and of the Jewish faith and people, with which he courageously identified himself in the final moment of his life. They are the values that were taught to him by his parents—the values that animate this great university in which he was educated—and the values that informed his decision to pursue a career in journalism.
I am speaking of the values of freedom of thought and expression, of curiosity and tolerance; and the conviction that people from different backgrounds, cultures, and faiths can not only live together and work together in peace and prosperity but that our world is made a richer, more meaningful place by virtue of doing so. It is the belief that the things that bind all of us together as human beings—history, humor, music, love, and friendship—are capable of transcending whatever differences divide us.
It's a message I'd love to see Lieberman deliver to J Street...but I'm sure he has no intention of showing up.
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1
The fuss is that in this country, any and all criticism of Israel is essentially grounds for being called either 'anti-Semitic' or 'Self-Hating Jew'.
Joe, you should know as well as we that there are Haaretz op-eds that are consistently run that would have whole papers stateside canned for the outcry of 'Jew Haters!'.
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1.1
"The fuss is that in this country, any and all criticism of Israel is essentially grounds for being called either 'anti-Semitic' or 'Self-Hating Jew".
Sounds similar to anyone who criticizes Obama as grounds for automatically being called a racist.
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1.2
What part of "Barack the Magic Negro" is not racist, precisely?
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1.3
Ask Juan Williams, a black liberal columnist who reported that Rush was making fun of the original article written by a black columnist at the LATimes. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,3391015.story
Liberals complain about Fox, Beck and Rush but have no trouble making up stories (dare I say lie) or taking the word of other left wing nut jobs
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1.4
Freetopee:
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How long do you think you can keep you insane babble up on issues of race?
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You find one individual in an entire landscape of Black America, and try to extrapolate that to the rest of a community you know nothing about.
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The truth is, ninety seven percent of Black Americans consider him a racist, and you can toss more than a few other of your esteemed idiots in there as well.
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But you know, freetopee, I think that if you are that confident in the accuracy of your imaginings, perhaps you would be received in the Black community with open arms.
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As a matter of fact, freetopee, I'm sure you would! If I were you, I'd hike my arse out of the house right now and go to your nearest Black neighborhood and spread the news!
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Hell yes...
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2
" .. a liberal Israel-advocacy group .."
"fairness doctrine"?
We are not going to get a supporter of mainstream Al Queda advocacy group singing their praises here, are we?Talk of pompous, know-it-all, supremacist 'rednecks' ..
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3
Joe Klein: "Ben-Ami seems perfectly mainstream reasonable to me."
Others considered "perfectly mainstream reasonable" to Klein: Maoist Obama flack/flake Anita Dunn, 9/11 Truther/Obama flack/flake Van Jones, Jeremiah "God d*@#" America" Wright, unrepentant terrorists/Obama mentors Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, unrepentant racist Sonya Sotomayor, pimp, ho and child sex slave enterprise ACORN (don't forget about its side job as a massive voter fraud outfit), ....
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3.1
textee,
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I assume that you're enjoying life with the 20% of Americans who are in the same fringe pot as yourself, eh? -
3.2
I see that Textee the Scrotumsucker has reappeared to peddle anti-American garbage in the name of the neo-Confederate Kookocracy. Let's just remember that if alQaeda wins, the first person to start demanding sharia law will be our little Textette. You can see the posts now - demands for more mullahs for Oklahoma, howls of rage demanding more genital mutilation, screeching when women appear in public without a bag over their heads. There's really no difference except location between alQaeda and the GOP.
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3.3
But, put the Purple Heart on a li'l band-aid to mock someone's combat injuries, well...IOKIYAR.
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3.4
Two problems, textee:
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1. The ACORN thing turned out to be a hoax
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and
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2. Al Queda has not killed a single American on American soil yet. However, GOP crackpots have killed eleven people, one of which was killed two weeks ago.
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So, textee, would you care to revise/adjust your comments?
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jeopardy.wav
jeopardy.wav
jeopardy.wav
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4
A slightly different take on the interview, mostly about Jeffrey Goldberg's tone.
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http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/23/jeremy-ben-amis-plea-for-sanity/ -
5
Can we please stop feeding the trolls guys, arguing with them gets us nowhere and tends to lead to the threads degenerating really fast into ranting. I understand it is fun to mock them but it destroys any hope of substantiative discussion.
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5.1
We try (sometimes) to have "No Feeding Thursdays", with results that keep posts and comments on topic.
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Fridays, however, are more of a free-for-all and we let if all hang out. Kindof like watching Hannity without throwing something at the teevee...5 minutes....10 minutes...Boom!
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6
Joe: Thank you for taking up the J-Street controversy. Please stay on this and hold fast against the certain SHJ pushback.
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We can only hope that by having this become an issue in the first year of Obama's term of office, there may be a chance for real progress in the Isreal-Palestinian Peace Process by 2016.
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Shalom.-
6.1
You are seeing real progress in Palestine but it's limited to the West Bank. Netayahu has decided on a multi-track path one of which is to isolate the WB from Gaza and work with other Arab nations to develop the WB economy outside the reach and control of the PLO and Fatah. Israel has actually done some preliminary work with Qatar to start some settlements based on the Israeli model but for Palestinians. It should turn into a huge building program that will signifcanty expand the housing stock and employment resulting in a quantifiable increase in the standard of living. Netanyahu has also reduced or eliminated as many as 100 roablocks to improve traffic and commerce. GDP in the West Bank is expected to grow 7% this year and could easily move into a trend of 10%+ years compounding indefinitely.
Think about it. By 2012 the West Bank could have a lower unemployment rate than Michigan. Consider the fact the West Bank is generally secular and Gaza is general fundamentalist and the wide gaps in economic fortunes and you can see how quickly these two societies will become incompatable.
Making all this possible is the fact the Arabs have far more to fear from Iran and it's terror proxies than from Israel. We saw in the Gaza war the Arabs all but applauded Israel. Hamas accused them of supplying intelligience. Until liberals take these realites into account Netanyahu will manage all progress in cooperation with the Arabs. Life in the West Bank is already as peaceful as it's been since before Arafat. Abbas gets it and time is his friend. As long as Obama is in office neither he nor Nertanyahu is in any rush. Fatah will prosper as Hamas struggles. .
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6.2
note Joe's comment re: "pretend to favor negotiations (the Likudnik position)".
Joe gets Netanyahu is putting a clinic on Obama and is frustrated. Obama's goofy settlement demand put Abbas in an impossible position. Having joined Obama in demanding a stop to all construction Abbas cannot reverse course due to domestic political considerations. Abbas is holding firm on NO talks. This gives Netanyahu the freedom to posture endlessly for talks. BiBi has been to the USA to met with Michell several times to get talks started telling anyone and everyone he's ready to start negotiating tomorrow without pre-conditions. He just wants to make peace, sit arond the campfire and sing kimbahyou. This is of course obvious but still brilliant political posturing. It's a gimme. And it's fine by Abbas.
BiBi with some help from the mossad is active in protecting Abbas from Hamas. In this regard Obama was right. They do have common interests.
Joe understands Obama is at a standstill. Obama is standing deep in a hole he dug himself and the shovel is still in his hands. He finally figured out he's in deep. He's not digging right now. Netanyahu and Abbas don't want to see him keep diggin but he's going to have to get out on his own. Joe probably thinksJ Street could move the country somewhat left closer to him. Not a chance. J Street, like Joe, is more useful to Netanyhahu and Abbas than to any peace movement.
There are times political enemies are so inept they're useful. Most conservstive pundits want J-Street to stay in business, marginalized. The left is so oblivious regarding Palestine they serve as useful idiots.
Peace in Palestine is impossible as long as Hamas exists in any meaningful way. Obama can't and won't deal with Hamas. Israel has to prepare Fatah for the job. Divide and Conquer is working. They are effectively at peace with the WB and both are very prosperous. Israel has thrashed Hamas and Hezbollah and will do so again. They want fatah to be prepared the next time to come in after them and finish Hamas off. Then there can be peace and prosperity. For now, only the WB gets prosperity.
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7
The J Street "controversy" is exactly the same as the czars "controversy."
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There's nothing novel about the term, or role, czar. And J Street gives voice to Jews who, as Ackerman at sgwhite's link puts it, "love [Israel] so much we want it to stop doing fu¢king self-destructive and unjust things."
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Now, one can argue with the positions the czars and J Street are taking; but for the most part, that's not what we see. We see people trying to stigmatize both as being politically incorrect, not worthy of engagement.
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And the Jay Newton Small method of reporting-- "we just talk about controversies! No facts allowed, just rival perspectives!"-- concedes the terms and topics of debate to the factless, shouting, would-be stigmatizers.
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(In fairness, it's the MSM method of reporting; JNS just happened to put it out there explicitly the other day. -
8
I read the exchange in full twice. I've said this before: thereare much more vibrant discussions of Israel and Palestine issues in Israel than there is here. We just don't want to hold Israel to the same standard that we hold Arab nations and we have a ready made answer for that: they are not democracies. (We also treat Saudi Arabia and the Emirates differently from Egypt and Syria)
Is Israel a real democracy or one for Jews only? I get the impression that Israel's Arabs are second class citizens in the old South African mode pre-Nelson Mandela's presidency.Also, Goldberg's question have a hand wringing quality to them.
One other question, Joe: how conflicted are American Jews about the clash of their loyalties? I guess one can ask the same question of Arab Americans, too.
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8.1
American Jews don't have a signifcant clash of loyalties. Nor do they matter as much as before. The bulk of support for Israel comes from conservatives, especially religious conservatives and especially evangelicals. To the extent American Jews would support a change in policy their small numbers would have limited impact.
If for example Obama would push for a reduction in military aid because in his view Israel has not been cooperative, this would generate a sigificant pushback from almost the entire right and a majority of independents. Israel isn't widely supported because it's jewish. It's because they're a modern democracy surrounded by backwards dictatorships and Islamic extremists.
Obama decided to rejoin the extreme UN human rights commission end they just approved an egregious version of the Goldstone report demanding an investigation of Israeli atrocities in the Gazan war. Not Hamas atrocities. Just Israeli. Our Congress voted something like 409 to 2 to condemn the UN.
Joe Klein and the American left are on the fringe as regards israel. They are as irrelevent as Obama.
This is one of the weirder aspects of American politics. There's an incredible fear on the left of the so-called Jewish lobby. As if they're running US foreign policy for the benefit of Israel. Huh? Conservatives despised Arafat because he ordered clueless kids to strap bombs onto to their bodies and walk up to a jewish mother with a baby carriage and blow themselves up. So Sharon decided to kill the leaders and build a fence. Pretty obvious solution to me. Didn't need a lobby to explain that one.
Terrorists in Gaza were launching 40 rockets a day into Israel. Time to kill a few hundered terrorists. Don't need a lobby to explain that one either.
As long as Israel is threatened by terrorism they will have the support of a large majority of Americans. How American Jews feel is irrelevent.
BTW: As far as cutting off aid it would be political suicide and not effective. The Israeli economiy is near $210B a year. Our aid is $3B and it's used to buy American products. It's less than 1.5% of Israeli GDP. As an economic factor it's not substantial. Their economy will probably grow 3% this year and 6% next. That's about $13B next year. So net of US Aid they grow $10B and we lose the export sales. The avanced weaponry is important but hardly critical. Israel can easily wait for the next President and if Obama were to go this route that would be in 3 years. GWB gave them everyhing. They're OK
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9
Joe,
I liked the Goldberg interview, but "liberal advocacy group?". It is clear that Ben-Ami does not want to be viewed as a "liberal" and seemed to invite attacks from the Left in order to get his street creds with the mainstream Jewish community in the U.S.
I think it is a mistake that the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. has refused to appear before the group, but let's be honest, J Street represents the "opposition" at least as it exists in Israel. Why would a Likudnick want to give the opposition a chance to get its name out in the American Jewish Community.
The real ironic thing is that J Street does represent the mainstream Jewish community in the U.S. while AIPAC represents the elite right-wingers. Actually, the biggest supporters of Likud in this country are the Christian Evangelicals, like Mike Huckaby, who completely ignore the Palestinian Christian Community in favor of getting all the Jews in this country to move to Israel to speed up the Rapture.
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9.1
The above doesn't make sense. You state AIPAC represents elite right wing opinion and then point out the biggest supporters of Israel are Evangelicals. They're hardly the elites. The fact is Conservatives of all stripes strongly support Israel as represented by AIPAC. Sharon and now Netanyahu are probably the most respected world leaders of the last decade among conservatives. The bottom line is Conservatives have always been and always will be anti-terror. 9/11 didn't change anything. Arafat was always a terrorist and a thief. Conservatives will always be pro-democracy and the only democracies in the middle east are Israel and Iraq.
On top of these two basic positions, anti-terror and pro-democracy, the arabs states are massively corrupt and backward. The notion Arabs in Israel are 2nd class citizens as in South Africe under apartied is representative of classical liberal though. It is wrong and ignorant. The freeest and most prosperous Palestinians in the world don't live in Lebanon or Syria or Gaza or Jordan or Egypt or the West Bank or Tunisa. They live in Israel.
Liberals and the MSM has suffered terribly with the emergence of the new media but on no issue as decisively as the middle east. While the elite media and a majority of liberals are anti-israel America is broadly supportive. Israel has never enjoyed this depth of support.
To tie this into the current thread on Fox I can tell you my favorite clip of all time was from many years ago when the Palestinains in the West Bank were holding a mass funeral / demonstration and carrying the casket of a terror leader down the street with 10,00o mourners moaning and crying a river. Apparently the Jews knew it was a scam. At the moment the crowd seemed most frenzied an Israeli helicopter buzzed the area. The mourners scattered and they dropped the casket. The dead guy hopped out and ran away with them. It was hilarious. Brit Hume and the entire roundtable were hysterical. Brit continued to play it periodically. This is why liberals hate Fox. In fact, that was news. That is also why conservatives support Israel and AIPAC has nothing to do with it.
BTW: Joe seems not to know how many congressmen have dropped out of the J-Street event. It's quite a long list and Joe Leiberman won't ever go.
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10
The only reason that Faux News is an issue is because the rest of the MSM doesn't have the guts to call it what it really is: The PR arm of the Republican Party.
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10.1
Wrong thread. My bad.
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11
There can't be a 2 state solution when Palestine is two different states and they are effectively in a civil war. Fatah and Hamas have become blood enemies with a great deal of extreme violence between them.
Netanyahu has pursued a masterful policy of supporting investment and freedoms in the West Bank in cooperation with the other Arab governments while isolating Iran controlled Gaza. Obama's buffoonish demand on settlements has frozen peace talks giving Abbas the prefect excuse to delay while the West Bank economy starts to boom. There has been a great deal of cooperation between Israel and an Arab world that recognizes Iran as the real threat.
Look for economic growth to start componding at double digit rates as the West Bank receives sigficant economic investment from other Arab states. Qatar will be funding several new settlements designed for Palestinians. They will essentially be smaller city-states mostly self contained and somewhat independent of Fatah and the PLO. As this more secular society prospers the religious fanaticism and economic incompetence of UN management will leave Gaza as a cesspool. They will start to become to very different societies.
Look for another war a few years down the road as Hamas attacks Israel again and Israel disarms Hamas and partitions Gaza into sectors. This time Fatah will come in and reconvert Gaza a sector at a time. It won't be pretty. One then will there be peace talks.
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12
Joe has reason to be upset over J-Street. Designed to represent the liberal position they've been totally marginalized. Just as the liberal position has been. It's utterly preposterous to talk about a two state solution when there are three states and one of them is run by Hamas who promises to wipe our Israel. One doesn't negotiate for ones existance.
Moreover it's almost certainly set in Obama has mangled the Middle East as badly as it could have been mangled. At the same time Neatanyahu has run a political clinic on Obama.
Obama's rigid demand on settlements was utterly perposterous. Israel has been building settlements and negotiating for decades. Domestic support for settlement construction is broad and deep. Israeli's were never going to stop building and the Palestinians were not demanding a total stop. THe nation has united behind Netanyahu on his decision to defy Obama and Obama has officially backed down after wasting 6 months on a pointless exercise.
It gets worse. Obama gave Abbas the pretext NOT to negotiate. Hamas and other groups adapted Obamas rigid position and now all are holdinf to it. It's impossible for Abbas to reverse position and maintain any public support. Now with everything frozen Abbas has called for national elections uderstanding Hamas has to refuse. Now Obama is going to have to engage Hamas into elections they'll lose. We'll see how he manages that one.
A couple of weeks ago Obama made a preposterous assertion. "All nations have the same interests". That's just stupid. Palestine is now two nations and they don't have the same interests and whenever the combine most assuridly will not have the same interests as Israel.
Obama believes all of these airy lefty bromides he picked up at harvard and from reading Time. We'll see if he can learn from reality.
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13
Joe, do you have any idea how completely idiotic, moronic and irresponsible somebody has to be to argue that the opinions of AMERICAN Jews should matter more to the state of Israel than those of ISRAELI Jews???
When are you ever gonna learn, your opinion simply does not matter?
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14
Netanyahu has a nice clip in the Washington Post. He's running a clinic on Obama. He stands in front of any camera or mike he can find telling them he's ready, willing and able to make peace tomorrow if only the Palestinians were willing to negotiate. Now that's pitch perfect. Abbas remains invisible and uncooperative and Obama is standing in a hole looking for a clue.
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