Yes, It's Racism...but it's Complicated
Jimmy Carter's intervention in the winguts v. Obama controversy has raised the expected amount of dust--and I suppose the standard reaction is that "it's a good thing we're having this conversation," but I'm not so sure that it is. Since I was one of the early racism-shouters here on Swampland, and on the Chris Matthews show last Sunday, I probably should explain why "this conversation" is heading in the wrong direction.
First of all, I tried to make it clear that I wasn't talking about classic white-black racism, though elements of that are present, to be sure. My sense of the teabaggers is more complicated: they are primarily working-class, largely rural and elderly white people. They are freaked by the economy. They are also freaked by the government spending--TARP, the stimulus package etc.--that was necessary to avoid a financial collapse. (I'm not sure Keynes is taught in very many American high schools.) But most of all, they are freaked by an amorphous feeling that they America they imagined they were living in--Sarah Palin's fantasy America--is a different place now, changing for the worse, overrun by furriners of all sorts: Latinos, South Asians, East Asians, homosexuals...to say nothing of liberated, uppity blacks.
In that sense, Barack Obama is the apotheosis of all they fear. He is a child of what used to be called miscegenation--a mixed marriage. His father was a Muslim, his mother was sort of a hippy. She raised him in Hawaii, which is just barely American and in Indonesia (which is very suspicious). He is a liberal (even if a prohibitively moderate one). Worse, he's a completely urban sort. There is nothing resembling a log cabin in his background. We've had elite Presidents--the Roosevelts, the Bushes--but we have never really had an urban one. (New York Governor Al Smith, Tammany Hall's finest, was trounced in 1928--the last pure urban candidate.) This sort of populist paranoia is disgraceful, but as American as apple pie. The appropriately-named Know-Nothing Party of the 1840s was anti-immigrant. The Republican Party has pursued an implicitly racist "southern strategy" since the late 1960s.
But there is a reason why Barack Obama has tried to lowball the race issue since he arrived on the public scene: it is divisive, in a reprehensible way. If everything he does is seen through the prism of race, if he becomes a "black" President, he loses--the furriners may be overrunning the country, but we're still majority white. He does not want to be perceived as a minority President either racially or numerically. And he's right: we have more important business to transact right now.
Finally, I should say that the things that scare the teabaggers--the renewed sense of public purpose and government activism, the burgeoning racial diversity, urbanity and cosmopolitanism--are among the things I find most precious and exhilarating about this country. And even though the teabaggers' pinched , paranoid sensibilities are now being stoked by Boss Rush and the leaders of the Republican party, I take comfort in this: the racists and nativists have always been with us, and they have always lost. They will lose this time, too.
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1
I certainly agree that the race consideration had to be stated and you and Carter did so eloquently, and I agree that now that it's be said, leave it alone.
The teabaggers are simply Archie Bunkers who don't really have a clue what their anger is really about nor Obama's role in it. They are ignorant in general, let alone of subliminal racial undercurrents, or will lie of more overt feelings, and carp about the "race card", another favorite charge of the right wing. Now let the issue rest, there is nothing to gain by repeating it other than possibly stirring up the crazies even more than they are prone.
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1.1
One more thing I forgot to mention...any doubt I may have of racist attitudes of the rw toward Obama were previously overcome completely by the rw crusade in immigration, which was directed totally toward Mexico. No doubt in my mind of total racism in that case.
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1.2
I'm with you and Joe up until the point you say, "Let it rest."
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No. Do not let it rest until every moderate in the country who took a chance on Obama gets to see what the RW "dark side" is really like and gets a chance to reaffirm their decision in 2010. -
1.3
The last ditch move by Obama supporters as evidenced here on an almost daily basis has now hit full on in the MSM and the leadership of the Democrat Party.
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Hate to clue you all in on it, but the public is rejecting your feeble claims. It is not racism, it is a rejection of Obama's policies. Nothing more.
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Obama's future has and always will be in his own hands. He will fail miserably because Liberals, Progressives or Communitarians, whatever name they want to call themselves these days, is based on nothing of importance to the regular average Joe.
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We are happy with our healthcare as it is now. We do want to see reform, but not in the way that YOU think we want it. No more big government giveaways. No more huge entitlement programs, the "dreams" of Edward Kennedy were buried with him.
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It is not racism stupid, it is the rejection of Obama's policies and the direction he is taking this country. He could be purple, and it wouldn't make any difference. -
1.4
More "stupid" racist "tea-baggers", or are they??
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What do you think Joe Klein?
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1.5
Joe,
I would really like to hear from non-biased, mainstream media, intellectual such as yourself how a "winguts/teabaggers/other derogatory names" can protest Obama in a non-racist way?
Does the First Amendment become invalid when Democrats controls all three branches of Government? Just as a reminder what it says.
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CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE, AND TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.
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It is articles like this that make me glad I no longer subscribe to Time magazine and look forward to the demise of the mainstream media.In the meantime I will hold onto my wallet tightly because I know people like yourself are coming to take it.
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1.6
Am I the only one that finds this article funny? Such a lack of intellectual honesty. Calling the protesters "teabaggers" and then describing them as:
"My sense of the teabaggers is more complicated: they are primarily working-class, largely rural and elderly white people."
Lets check some definitions:
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racism - racial prejudice or discrimination.
prejudice - preconceived judgment or opinion
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Hey Joe. I am not sure about racism but I agree that there is some prejudice going on here. You might want to look in the mirror to see the source. -
1.7
"The teabaggers are simply Archie Bunkers who don't really have a clue what their anger is really about nor Obama's role in it. They are ignorant in general"
This statement only displays your own ignorance and prejudice. great job!
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Two points: "And he's right: we have more important business to transact right now."
Agreed, so move on.
"I take comfort in this: the racists and nativists have always been with us, and they have always lost. They will lose this time, too."
Define defeat and/or victory--you can admit that their defeats have often taken interminably long times.
I offer Matt Taibbi:
"After all, the reason the winger crowd can't find a way to be coherently angry right now is because this country has no healthy avenues for genuine populist outrage. It never has. The setup always goes the other way: when the excesses of business interests and their political proteges in Washington leave the regular guy broke and screwed, the response is always for the lower and middle classes to split down the middle and find reasons to get pissed off not at their greedy bosses but at each other. That's why even people like [Glenn] Beck's audience, who I'd wager are mostly lower-income people, can't imagine themselves protesting against the Wall Street barons who in actuality are the ones who f@cked them over. . . .
Actual rich people can't ever be the target. It's a classic peasant mentality: going into fits of groveling and bowing whenever the master's carriage rides by, then fuming against the Turks in Crimea or the Jews in the Pale or whoever after spending fifteen hard hours in the fields. You know you're a peasant when you worship the very people who are right now, this minute, conning you and taking your sh!t. Whatever the master does, you're on board. When you get frisky, he sticks a big cross in the middle of your village, and you spend the rest of your life praying to it with big googly eyes. Or he puts out newspapers full of innuendo about this or that faraway group and you immediately salute and rush off to join the hate squad. A good peasant is loyal, simpleminded, and full of misdirected anger. And that's what we've got now, a lot of misdirected anger searching around for a non-target to mis-punish . . . can't be mad at AIG, can't be mad at Citi or Goldman Sachs. The real villains have to be the anti-AIG protesters! After all, those people earned those bonuses! If ever there was a textbook case of peasant thinking, it's struggling middle-class Americans burned up in defense of taxpayer-funded bonuses to millionaires. It's really weird stuff."
Gospel, that...
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2.1
...Of course, the counter to that whole piece would be that the "peasants" don't like being called "peasants" by college grads like Taibbi, and find condescending analyses like these to be worth even more anger and dis-identification than Matt realizes.
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It could be that anger at elites is right under Matt's nose, but that it comes in a form he cannot or will not make the effort to break out of his class struggle theories to understand in practical, live terms. -
2.2
And maybe the counter to that is just because you are fortunate enough to afford a college education by any means does not necessarily make you an elitist. And maybe there are different ways to tell people that while they think they might be free the reality is they are being ruled. But not by Matt.
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2.3
just because you are fortunate enough to afford a college education by any means does not necessarily make you an elitist
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...and does not necessarily make you able to deeply comprehend the psychologies of other people who aren't like you.. -
2.4
Good point Stu. But I have a question. Should Matt write in such a way that he never offends those who might disagree with what ever point he is trying to make or should he write in such a way that shocks those that do or might get the point?
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Should he make every thing a euphemism to not offend? Is that the kind of writer you are looking for? Seriously? -
2.5
Gunny:
Should Matt write in such a way that he never offends those who might disagree with what ever point he is trying to make
I take it that this is a rhetorical question?
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If not, then of course he shouldn't. But it seems to me that it would be even more informative (and intellectually honest) if Matt were to acknowledge in some way how "the master" who "sticks a big cross in the middle of your village" and who "puts out newspapers full of innuendo about this or that faraway group" is putting out innuendo about the faraway group of people who are like Matt Taibbi --and the innuendo doesn't have to be thick to be far removed from the truth that Matt Taibbi despises "you" (with the cross in your village).or should he write in such a way that shocks those that do or might get the point?
I think that he's rabble-rousing us. I think that he's ranting and yelling about those stupid, peasant, moron, power-worshiping other people who are f*cking things up for people like Matt who want to make life better for them, and who can't for their lives understand how someone like Matt who holds them and their culture in such contempt really wants to help them. I don't think that what Taibbi is saying is particularly shocking, except to those who have never thought about anything except whatever comes to mind whilst doing huge bongs and viewing "Most Extreme Elimination Challenge" on Spike. If he wants to expose the Village's fetish for a pastoral Middle America, he can go right ahead, but he should maybe save the body of his contempt for liberals who have let the country somehow fall into the hands of "the master" over and over and over again, despite their obvious affection for their inferiors.
Should he make every thing a euphemism to not offend? Is that the kind of writer you are looking for? Seriously?
I guess that you're really asking me if Matt Taibbi is wrong, because you can't possibly imagine that I am a prescription-peddler of euphemisms out of political correctness or sensitivity. I hate that sh*t.
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No, Matt Taibbi isn't wrong, it's just that his analysis is horrifyingly incomplete without the inclusion of our failure to be better than reaching people at a cultural level than "the master" does. He seems to be revoltingly un-self aware in this regard. It's not just that people are peasants with peasant mentality who are crazy not to recognize our superior ideas on their behalf, it's that this is definitely the case and (again and again) we don't give ordinary people are reason to trust us --in many cases because the stupid peasants are actually literate enough to read what we write, and smart enough to listen to how we talk to them.
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That "they" are actually "us" seems like a concept that doesn't take up enough room in Matt Taibbi's mind sometimes.
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Does that make sense, Gunny?
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Maybe when they start yelling, "Let's hang the n*****s!", you'll find it less 'complicated'.
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3.1
What's even sadder is that legit Repubs won't even tell these crazy people to back off, lest The Wrath of Flush and Blech will come upon them.
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3.2
... and when that happens I'll join with you to condemn every last individual saying it. I'll go ahead right now and condemn the small minority of these people who ARE motivated by racial prejudice. A small minority of the signs, T-shirts and interviews with attendees DO evidence bigotry. But the vast majority do not.
But beyond that (I'm turning to Mr. Klein now) why can't those of you who hate American culture go do your urban thing and leave the rest of us alone? We like our church socials -- more now than ever, as the racial divides fall and we gather with the WHOLE community. We like our pretty front yards, our roomy back yards where the kids play, and our garden patches. We work hard for what we want, pay our own way, and want others to do the same. Taxes to pay for defense, roads, even for those unfortunates who are unable to care for themselves? No problem.
We give more to charity, in time, money and (literally) blood than "progressives". With rare exceptions (yes, I know a very few), we're ecstatic to see race become totally meaningless -- as Dr. King said, for men to be judged not on the color of their skin, but on the content of their character.
But we've seen how socialism has swept the European countries of their cultural beauty and uniqueness. We've seen how it (and the well-intentioned socialism of the Great Society here in the US) have created cultures of dependence wherever government has stepped in with guarantees.
As far as immigration is concerned, I'm all for turning up the spigot on legal immigration, and most conservatives I know agree; what we do NOT accept is a porous border, where people can enter (a) in unlimited numbers, and (b) with no checks to ensure that they do not endanger us, and that they will not become burdens to our society.
if you are intellectually honest enough to look at the facts, you'll see that these are mostly not hateful people who don't care about others; they are responsible citizens who know that both dependence and excessive taxation are bondage, and don't wish to see themselves or any man bound.
On the other hand, if you conclude that _only_ hate and racism can fuel conservative activism, then you are either foolish or willfully blind.
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You're too rough on the TARP/bailout critics. Nothing in Keynes said to take tax dollars from working people and use them to pay bonuses at AIG.
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I'm going to repost this because it represents the complete failure of the MSM to do it's job. Would these people be this stupid if we had anyone out there reporting the truth.
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5.1
Agreed. If the MSM would do its job, by showing a truly representative cross section of the healthcare and TEA Party protests, then these idiots crying racism would understand that race seldom crosses the minds of most people, and has nothing to do with most of conservative activists' motivations.
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Unfortunately, they -- intentionally or ignorantly, I don't know which -- carefully choose only that news that bolsters their preconceived notions. They show a man carrying an "assault weapon", with commentary that implies that the man might start shooting black people at any moment, carefully framing the shot to obscure that it is a BLACK man carrying the rifle!
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They remain cloistered among other liberals, refusing to see things that would challenge their presuppositions. Charlie Gibson was the last person in America to know about the ACORN videos. The NYTimes was among many MSM outlets that failed to report any of the Van Jones controversy until he was on the way out the door (or in many cases, 'til he was gone).
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They pass up hundreds of signs that speak of freedom and liberty, and focus in on the few that contain some racially insensitive -- or in some cases outright racist -- slogan or image. Make no mistake, those people get no love from conservative mainstreamers; after all, they give ammunition to our opponents (many suspect, and none can rule out, that some of these may be "false flag" operatives; but I know that there are flat-earthers, birthers, truthers, atheists, racists, and other kinds of fools in the world, so I assume these people are probably for real).
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By carefully selecting what is shown, they fail to capture the truth about the conservative movement. It is about liberty, and liberty includes the right to be an ass as long as you don't hurt anyone else. Talk to the ACLU if you don't understand what I mean.
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It's also about preserving a way of life -- not in they way Joe Klein imagines it, where we're all trying to preserve power over minorities (I've never had power over anyone, of any race -- and don't really want it; I just don't want someone else having over me). No, what we're trying to preserve is an American flavor of community -- rugged, individualistic, with each doing the best he can on his own, and neighbors willing to help out when it's needed. You liberals act as if it's a myth, but that's because you've never lived in a small town in Iowa or Texas or Oklahoma or Tennessee. I've experienced it in those places, and have friends who are living that life in places across the country. But you can't live that life with overlords. You can't live it with a government that takes everything you earn and then decides what it will let you have back. You can't live that life with a government that regulates every moment of every day for you. So we'll fight -- politically, for now (and I pray that's enough) -- to preserve our way of life.
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I know, you liberals think we Southerners are stupid (another way in which the MSM has let you down; goll' durn, we have collidges an' ever'thang!) I assure you, we are perfectly capable of running our own lives. Maybe Niebuhr is a big deal to you, and David Brooks, and President Obama; I really couldn't care less (yes, I know who he is; I just don't care). But there are things we know that you don't. You probably don't know how to clean a catfish, or fix a lawnmower. You probably can't explain the perspective displayed in the letters of the Apostle Paul and the Book of James. You probably never experienced the thrill of catching crawdads with your kids, or helping your mother in her garden. You probably never caught fireflies on a June night, or sat on a porch swing with a pretty girl. You probably never had the preacher over for Sunday lunch, or pitched horseshoes with your city councilman. These simple things are what make a LIFE for us. They are the things we care about, and they are equally available to anyone of any race. You who accuse us of racism know nothing about our us or our lives -- which is your loss.
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Some of you liberals & city folks may want another kind of life; you're welcome to it, if you can afford it. But leave us the heck alone.
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For me the defining moment for how the Obama Presidency was going to go was "bittergate." I probably shouldn't remind you that the folks here at Time were among those who piled on suggesting that Obama was failing to connect with 'Lower Middle Class Whites" and that it was a big problem.
So a big part of the problem that many people have with Obama isn't that he's black but that he's black and clearly smarter than they are! THAT'S what they really hate!
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Americans are not racist. Obama just sucks at his job.
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7.1
Joe, ya just proved your point.
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I was having a back and forth with a teabagger-demographic on my street who was very upset about the national debt and mildly upset about healthcare reform. His solution for health care reform was "tax rebates". Tax. Rebates.
I inquired what effect "tax rebates" would have on the national debt.
Then nothing...silence. No words.
It was like I was looking into a dead brain through blank eyes.
These people are afraid of something all right. They are afraid that the rest of the world might be realizing that they are really, really stupid. -
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One more thing: some of this racism is complicated liek you describe and I think you're being really generous and understanding about that. But some of it "he'd better show some humility" is just plain old racist cracker talk.
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Maybe someone should publish a list of all the things that should and shouldn't be talked about. Each item that should be talked about should come with a suggested appropriate amount of time to talk about it. Like:
1. Bringing torturers to justice -- DO NOT TALK ABOUT
2. Czars -- OK TO TALK ABOUT (Until next Republican administration)
3. Racism -- OK TO TALK ABOUT (Keep it brief, name no names)Alternatively, we could all just talk about whatever we think it's important to talk about, choosing to respond to what others are talking about as we see fit.
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It's uncool to be seen as blatantly racist...that's why we see the BO-as-the Joker signs, the BO-as-bush-doctor signs, the whiteface signs, the swastikas, etc., because they all hide behind an ostensible political point. Has any of the past three or four presidents gotten people so riled up that we had to pack heat wherever he speaks? Doubt it.
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I don't know what a leftist fairy like Joe Klein means by "teabaggers", but given the fact that male fundamentalist homosexualists like MSDNC's Rachel Mancow, David Shuster, CNN's Cooper Anderson and female fundamentalist homosexualists like MSDNC's unwatched Keith Olberwomann and the unread Andrew Sullivan call the pro-America community "teabaggers", can we conclude that "teabaggers" are those who engage in acts favored by the aforesaid leftist fundamentalist homosexualists?
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12.1
http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2009/02/this_is_100_per.html
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Hope this helps testy. -
12.2
"fundamentalist homosexualists"
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LOL
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"orthodox gay-accepters"?
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Yes Joe it is complicated, But what galls me is that the president is the one dealing with slights and disrespects. He wants to move on and the media won't let it happen. Please explain the difference between Boss Limbaugh, who says what he says for attention and those who give it to him?
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The problem is not the people who conflate the presidents public service initiatives with Nazi brown shirts, obviously they are just too darn dumb to make a difference. The problem is a media that has been licking its chops over racial strife ever since this thing began and they pounce on the issue with all the over kill they can muster every time it rears its ugly head.-
13.1
Dee:
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I think that your opinion is well worth considering.
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Joe, this kind of myopic blather is unbelievable. You have completely articulated (inadvertently, of course) why the left is losing.
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Labeling everybody who opposes Obamacare, as well as everybody who has walked in the protests, as racist merely on the basis of your wonderful imagination is one of the most despicable weapons in the arsenal of the more liberal-minded media today. People are catching onto it. People don't like the idea that if you dare open your mouth against the President, you have declared yourself a bigot.
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In case anyone thinks that "everybody who opposes Obamacare is a stretch," I'm not so sure about that. The way things go nowadays, everybody covered in the media fighting against HR 3200 is a teabagger/wingnut - and Carter's statement is quite loaded as well.-
14.1
Look no further for proof of this than the mass labeling of all who walked in the 9/12 march.
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14.2
"Labeling everybody who opposes Obamacare...as racist"
That would be wrong for anyone to do.
What do you understand to be "Obamacare"? The Baucus bill?
If you could say what "Obamacare" is then it would be easier to see the cads who are labeling everyone who opposes it racist.
Unless you just made that up.
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14.3
Yoshi this isn't meet the press. If you tell lies here you will be called on it. First and foremost the left isn't losing anything. The GOP hasn't benefited from all their antics -- their poll numbers haven't increased one iota. They want to take down the president but he still has a 54% approval rating, reflecting the exact percentage that put him in office. Don't confuse his coming out of the stratosphere with losing.
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Now as to your second point -- The right wing may have decided that the best way for them to avoid responsibility for deliberately stoking the remnants of the John Birch society is to play the victim card. But that's not going to work anywhere outside the halls of CNN. You know full well that accusations of racism were directed at a very specific subset like the guy who carried a sign comparing our president to an animal in the zoo -- Do you think he was really a racist or just another poor victim of liberal overreach? -
14.4
@Dee
"Do you think he was really a racist or just another poor victim of liberal overreach?"
God your good.
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14.5
yoshiattack:
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I think that your perspective on this matter is well worth considering. -
14.6
SZ-Which part of yoshi's "perspective"exactly do feel is
"well worth considering"?
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I asked for specifics that you evidently understand. -
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PNNTO:
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Well...for one:
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People don't like the idea that if you dare open your mouth against the President, you have declared yourself a bigot.
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is quite true, I think. I believe that a majority of Americans don't like feeling afraid to voice their opinions in this way, or that they may be looked down upon by others.
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If a case could be made to them successfully that this was what was going on, and it was going on in an organized way for political reasons, there would be a backlash.
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My reading of recent American history suggests that this has already happened at least once. I think that liberals may misunderstand how an aggressive posture against racism that lacks an accompanying deep identification with their fellow Americans could be highly counter-productive.
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I could be wrong, of course. It could be that most Americans are ecstatic about the idea that criticism of Obama could be deliberately misunderstood into accusations of racism, and that they will reject out of hand anyone who tells them that this is happening. -
14.8
"People don't like the idea that if you dare open your mouth against the President, you have declared yourself a bigot.
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is quite true, I think. I believe that a majority of Americans don't like feeling afraid to voice their opinions in this way, or that they may be looked down upon by others."
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Is this very forum not evidence that this is complete rot?
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You, Pluck, and many others (including me) have been after BHO and I certainly never have read or felt charges of racism.
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That "I'll be called a racist" card is played way more in 2009 USA then "you are a racist".
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"If a case could be made to them successfully that this was what was going on, and it was going on in an organized way for political reasons, there would be a backlash."
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Well I guess that's true. "If" being the VERY key word.
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I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph. I read it as a self defensive posture rather than an argument. -
14.9
PNNTO:
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It could be that most Americans are ecstatic about the idea that criticism of Obama could be deliberately misunderstood into accusations of racism, and that they will reject out of hand anyone who tells them that this is happening.
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I'm asking you to imagine how it might appear to people who don't necessarily see everything to do with race the same way that you do, and to think about how appealing arguments that play to victim-hood are to folks who are going through really hard times.
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If my rhetorical framing caused offense or was opaque, I apologize. -
14.10
SZ-no offense taken.
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Just so I understand, your feeling that Yoshi's perspective that is well worth considering
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"People don't like the idea that if you dare open your mouth against the President, you have declared yourself a bigot."
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is that there are people, who because of economic situation, are sensitive to being called racist even if they aren't actually being called racist?
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That's a smaller pinhead than I can thread. -
14.11
PNNTO:
is that there are people, who because of economic situation, are sensitive to being called racist even if they aren't actually being called racist?
I'm glad that you're not taking offense, because it seems kind of...well, obvious to me that ordinary folks don't have to be directly attacked in order to be afraid of being attacked by others whom they do not trust.
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Isn't one of the great lessons of the past eight years how people in Memphis and Milwaukee bought their hardware stores all out of duct tape when the "threat level" color code went to "Orange"?
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People don't have to actually experience accusations to be sensitive to the possibility of them, if the right buttons are pushed by some, and the wrong buttons are pushed by others. There are powerful stories that go along with feelings like these, and simple condemnation isn't even close to enough to making the situation better for everyone.
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Remember, I'm talking about tens and tens of millions and millions of people who aren't hardcore rightists, who take pride in being called "normal", who aren't terribly well-informed or exposed to how other Americans live or experience prejudice.
I believe that it's important for us to understand how these other people think and feel --much more important than "calling them out" as pinheads because they're not like us. If they don't understand us, and find our views antagonistic, and absorb the frames of the rightists, don't we bear the least bit of responsibility for that situation? Shouldn't we do better?
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Klein's use of the word "teabaggers" to describe American conservatives is wholly inappropriate & merits his immediate dismissal. The term refers to the sexual practice of slapping a partner's face w/ one's scrotum. To use such explicit sexuality to describe one's political opponents is unconscionably vile If any conservative were to use such a term to describe a liberal today, he'd be summarily fired, and the same should happen to Klein.
Immediately.
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15.1
Lighten up, Francis. The Teabaggers called themselves Teabaggers long before anyone else called them Teabaggers.
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Do you people have anything beyond your false victimhood? -
15.2
People who don't want to be called teabaggers don't carry signs like this: http://is.gd/3m4Zx
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15.3
Pafro, you can't just go around using their own signs against them, that's unsporting.
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15.4
Amen. But rules don't apply to leftists like Klein.
Good try, though.
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First of all, I tried to make it clear that . . .
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It's all about you, isn't it? All you, all the time, forever.
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At least Roland Hedley is meant to be funny.-
16.1
Well, at least we are now in the post-classical racist stage. I suppose that ought to be a consolation, although I don't know that this new age looks much different to the old one.
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17
Joe, you completely fail to understand where the anger of the people you refer to "scrotum slappers" is coming from. These scrotum slappers are not just older whites living in suburban areas. Many of us younger city dweller are also angry. We may not have as much time to go to protest rallies as our older, suburban friends but that will change soon enough. It's not about race and saying it is just offends more and more Americans that are tired of the hateful name calling and racial divisiveness.
When Pelosi called us Nazis Rush was kind enough to point out who's behaviour really reseambled the brown shirts. And now again you can't win the discussion of ideas so you call it racism. These comments don't help win friends to your cause.
As recently as a week ago Rasmussen had Obama's poll numbers at -12 (those that stronger approve minus those that strongely disapprove). If you wonder why the president is dropping hard in the polls it is not because of his color but because of all the name calling we are hearing from his surogates.
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17.1
Well, since you now reject Teabaggers as your nom-de-plume, how about the Tightie-Whities? That seems to sum up your rather small number of protesters fairly accurately.
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17.2
"Many of us younger city dweller are also angry..."
Oh scrotumslapped, I know this, I happen to live in NYC and I deal with your demographic... I actually recalled once getting into an argument with just this type about why we should show Palin respect....yes, I laughed.
Here's the reality Scrotum, sweat off of....your poll numbers you refer to are related to those who are already GOP fluffers or are one teabag from getting on their knees, no pun intended.
I want you to picture something, the crowd in Chicago when Obama won. Not one event, not one teabag chorus line, could ever match the majority of Americans that support Obama - even if I think he's not liberal enough.
Your base is shrinking, and all the screaming and shouting, that unfortunately the MSM loves to play over and over on teevee, well....they were also quick to dismiss Obama's likelihood of winning...repeatedly.
You don't even represent a minority of the population. You're a special interest group with a political party. The reality is, even in our 2-party system, one party eventually crashes and burns. We are fortunate enough to live through this in our time, as we watch the GOP slowly become a footnote in history. An interesting one at least.
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17.3
When Pelosi called us Nazis Rush was kind enough to point out who's behaviour really reseambled the brown shirts.
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Oh please god whatever you do, just keep typing.
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Type for all you're worth. Type your little wingnutty heart out. -
17.4
Frankly, I don't really care whether or not you are racist or whether the prospect of being called one offends you. I know a lot of people that are offended daily by you and yours. Of course there are no support groups for rational thinking Americans, so we have no choice but to tolerate being bombarded by the stupidity of a portion of this population who didn't get past seventh grade science and math and that constantly abuse those who have. Take your make believe America and all of the fantasies and faiths in fairy tales that you build up around it and hold on tight, while the rest of work hard to save our great nation. I'd say we let's just vote this idiots off the island and let them sink or swim with the great whites off of Maine -- but we did that last year.
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17.5
Tightie-whities just made my day. Thank you.
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17.6
"behaviour"?
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We spell it behavior in the United States you provocateur!
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18
3 Questions:
1) What percentage of white voters voted for the black candidate in the last election? Ans: 40 some pct.
2) What percentage of black voters voted for the white candidate in the last presidential election? Ans: 7-8%
3) Why are blacks so racist?-
18.1
In response to #3....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
oh but why let a little thing like that matter.
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18.2
I see that Henry's attached number refers not to his age, but to his IQ. Why can't the GOP keep its pet idiots safely locked up?
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18.3
Link?
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18.4
Question #4: What percentage of the U.S. Senate is white?
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answer: 99.5%
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Which group did you say was racist?
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19
Joe Klein:
I'm not sure Keynes is taught in very many American high schools.
I'm not sure basic Keynsian economics are being taught to Americans of any age, if they are obtaining whatever they know from the US press corps.
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"American high schools" are to blame for a disturbing lack of basic issue knowledge and critical thinking skills amongst the democratically-empowered populace of the richest country on earth, Joe Klein?
.
Really?-
19.1
"American high schools" are to blame for a disturbing lack of basic issue knowledge and critical thinking skills amongst the democratically-empowered populace of the richest country on earth, Joe Klein?
.
Actually, that sounds somewhat accurate to me. -
19.2
Well, high schools and the media. But most of the media went to high school, and some of them may even have graduated. So I fear it comes down to the high schools in the end.
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19.3
Cliff:
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Joe just had to get in his shot-du-jour at the teachers' unions, maybe? -
19.4
Good point.
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20
@ stuartzechman - Joe's point about Keynes not being taught in HS is another way of saying that the older, rural, white "teabaggers" are not well educated.
@ Elvis Elvisber... - the people who've attended Tea Parties have never referred to themselves as "teabaggers". That term came out of the liberal blogosphere. Nice try.
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20.1
RT from bafro: People who don't want to be called teabaggers don't carry signs like this: http://is.gd/3m4Zx
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20.2
Or hang actual teabags from their ears like this--
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/15/720331/-Teabagger-of-the-day -
20.3
I know conservatives aren't big on taking responsibility for their actions and people who watch faux news are at a distinct disadvantage because truth is not one of core talents. But teabagging belongs to conservatives, of course when you first used it you weren't aware of the sexual connotation until we started laughing at you out loud. Now that you know what it means you are embarrassed by your own ignorance (you know that might be a sign of progress) and in your role as a professional victim you need to find some way to make it a liberal plot.
.
Nevertheless, tea bagging is all yours. It is not the fault of liberals that some dim wit, and no I don't know which one, you have so many, but I digress. You called yourselves teabaggers because some dim wit thought it was a cute reference back to the Boston Tea Party -- you know that catalyst for the first revolution -- they do still teach that before the seventh grade don't they? Oh yeah, home schooled!
.
Perhaps this is what you deserve as punishment for the hubris of trying to name your dumb azz movement after a period where the best and the brightest, the liberal intelligentsia of the colonies, rose up and forged a great nation. How dare you equate you pathetic rabble rousing with the likes of our founding fathers whose collective intellectual fire power would have incinerated Beck, Limbauh and the rest of your cackling crowd from word one. -
20.4
I see.
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21
One would have to either be completely unplugged or a member of the mobs not to admit that the unprecedented conservative grass roots anger isn't partially race-based.
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21.1
Unplugged OR a member of the mobs? Aren't we talking identical groups here?
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21.2
Mobs??? You mean the mobs who disrupted the country during the Iraq anti-war protests. Mobs like Code Pink, ANSWER Coalition (front for Socialist Worker's Party), MoveOn.org, and the like? As for "race based", sure there are racists in our society. Man is imperfect. There are black racists (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the Reverend Wright), too.
If you leftists are trying to stymie legitimate debate by capriciously throwing around charges of racism, you're only signing your political death warrant. Most Americans are tired of all the race baiting and sliming.
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22
Joe..you are nothing more than a POS liberal hack..if you disagree with the president..you are a racicst.. You are an idiot..go follow your fellow liberal media types and join Obama like Carney.. Don't pretend to be an objective journalist..
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23
@ Dee in Columbi... What in the world? What kind of a flame is that? Embarrassed by my own ignorance, home schooled, how dare I, etc.?
I'm not a Republican or a teabagger. Just responding to some comments here.
You are a very mean spirited person.
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24
What gets me is that there are some folks who marched on 9/12 who seem rather, well, nice. Not the crazy conspiracy theorists or the ones carrying signs with not-so-veiled threats about armed insurrection. I'm talking about white middle-aged folks who, as Joe Klein puts it above, are freaked out about the economy and about suddenly realizing the America they believe in has up and changed.
Check out the video below. It's got the usual cast of wingnuts, but there are others who, when presented with an alternative view in a calm, rational manner, seem completely befuddled. They don't get red-faced and scream. They cannot all be stupid, but they're ignorant of some facts (the President is not a Muslim, he has actually cut taxes for most people, etc.) and are being led like sheep by Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. They aren't ideologues. They're just scared, and Beck and Fox and company are playing on those fears.
My fear is, us liberal progressive types will just point and laugh at those folks, engendering more fear and anger, when we could actually engage in some dialogue with them and seek common ground. How we do that, I don't know.
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24.1
I talk more in depth about this in the most recent post on my blog at http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com. (Shameless self-promotion, I know.)
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24.2
Very interesting, Shakespeare in GA, very interesting...
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24.3
Thank you Shakespeare for bringing some civility to the 'debate'. Both sides could learn from this example that spending more time trying to listen and learn and less time shouting and jeering would be helpful. Of course I'd argue that Obama could be setting an example in this regard.
That being said, I and many others who were also in that crowd Saturday would have gone toe-to-toe with the questioner and probably left him speechless. All sides of any argument will have their intellectual leaders and their followers. All that matters to most of the people there is that when they listen to conservatives they hear things which make sense to them, and when they listen to liberals it doesn't make sense. They don't have to fully understand the issue to take a side. This is precisely how our system works.
This isn't to say they are dumb, and I would strongly urge liberals to stay away from that line of thinking. If you can't sell your theories to the average person, then they won't work. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are and how good you think your ideas are.
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24.4
Good job editing this video. I was there and overhead you doing your little interview thing with a couple of other gentlemen. In fact, they gave you very succinct and concise answers to your questions. Realizing their interview and their answers weren't going your way, you cut them short. They knew and we knew while watching you what you were doing. I see their interview didn't make the film. Pity.
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25
As usual when the topic is race and class, my perspective is different from pretty much everyone else's...
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The mostly working-class and white right-wing extremist critics of Obama who feel that they are unfairly being accused of racism are right about the unfairness, although their anti-Obama paranoia is - in general - grounded in racist assumptions and fears. The reason why Joe's and much of the MSM's condescending criticism is unfair is that it completely ignores the reality that the top of American society benefits from and directly reinforces racial inequality far more than Glenn Beck's viewers. The school system, the health care system (if you really care about racial equality then you should be calling for a concerted effort to erase the often fatal racial profiling which is an epidemic in American medicine) and the justice system are protected by elites in the media and elsewhere.
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Most of these right-wing critics don't have even a mediocre understanding of the realities of racial inequality (I doubt that distinguishes them from most of the MSM), but I would bet that everyone of Glenn Beck's viewers intuitively understands that pronouncing them the most notorious racists in America is absurd when the people making those accusations personally benefit from and reinforce racism far more than the white guy making $25K.
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When journalists like Joe Klein spend even half of the time they are now spending calling Obama's critics racist talking about the racial context of the war on drugs, then those criticisms of unfairness will start to seem less valid.-
25.1
Rose:
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I should just shut up, and you should be speaking.
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Excellent, excellent commentary, Rose.
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What you've posted requires great consideration, thanks so much. -
25.2
So, in other words, limousine liberals? The people who have the luxury of making accusations from their relatively high perch in society (said high perch delivered courtesy of the system they are criticizing?)?
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Is it related to how QH would point out all the tree-hugging commenters here using their computers built from petroleum? -
25.3
stuart, thanks.
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Is it related to how QH would point out all the tree-hugging commenters here using their computers built from petroleum?
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cliff, well if we were actively helping defend and at times expand our system of petroleum addiction, while criticizing other people for being petroleum addicts, then yes it would be rather similar.
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A key distinction I would make is between people like you and me (I'm assuming neither of are in a position to put things like racial profiling in medicine on the news agenda) talking about the racism of Obama's critics and the rich white men of the media doing the same thing. But - and I'll probably offend some people here - it appears that much of the left, even outside the elite, is happy to obsess on the right's racism while usually ignoring things like the racial implications of the school system. There is something absurd about Glenn Beck and his viewers being the dominant face of racism in America, and the fact that Glenn Beck and his viewers are mostly racist doesn't somehow take that absurdity away.
.
It's kind of like Rusty thinking ACORN is extremely important. -
25.4
A quick aside on ACORN - it's annoying to me that the media bows and scrapes to critics to avoid being called biased towards liberalism, but then they completely miss the ACORN story, rendering themselves utterly vulnerable to accusations of bias.
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I'll have to mull over the rest of your post. The Glenn Beck racism thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me. -
25.5
Actually, my "thinking" on ACORN is simply that the MSM has completely IGNORED the fact that ACORN was recently found on video to be fostering Prostitution, child sex trade, harboring and transporting illegals, etc etc etc.
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I do also find it important that the current sitting President has deep ties with this organization, and even as late as 2008 gave this group over 800 MILLION dollars for their "get out the vote" initiatives.
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Are you not in the least "curious"? -
25.6
Rusty, I'm right there with you, but you've slipped the decimal a ways. It was 800 THOUSAND to ACORN, not 800 Million.
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But for my money, one red cent to ACORN (or any other hate-based organization -- and I've had enough personal experience with ACORN to know that is EXACTLY what they are) is too much.
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