Reading Cheney's Response To The New CIA Documents
Former vice president Dick Cheney has responded to the Monday release of new CIA documents, showing abuse, mismanagement and potential criminal violations in the harsh interrogation program that he approved. He offers a striking statement for three reasons.
But first a look at what Cheney says:
The documents released Monday clearly demonstrate that the individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda. This intelligence saved lives and prevented terrorist attacks. These detainees also, according to the documents, played a role in nearly every capture of al Qaeda members and associates since 2002. The activities of the CIA in carrying out the policies of the Bush Administration were directly responsible for defeating all efforts by al Qaeda to launch further mass casualty attacks against the United States. The people involved deserve our gratitude. They do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions. President Obama's decision to allow the Justice Department to investigate and possibly prosecute CIA personnel, and his decision to remove authority for interrogation from the CIA to the White House, serves as a reminder, if any were needed, of why so many Americans have doubts about this Administration's ability to be responsible for our nation's security.
So what is surprising?
First, Cheney does not mention the claim, which he has made elsewhere, that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques produced information that saved lives. Rather, he claims only that “individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda.” This statement is neither in dispute, nor much of a revelation. The enhanced techniques, when they were used as designed and not by rogue agents without proper supervision, were employed on a select few detainees who knew a lot about al Qaeda. The outstanding question is whether the enhanced techniques were necessary to produce the information, and on that score the memos continue to paint a muddy picture, as TIME's Bobby Ghosh explains today in this piece. In fact, the CIA IG concludes that measuring the effectiveness of the harsh techniques is a “subjective” task, with no clear result.
[Update on Wednesdsay: Yesterday, after I published this post, Ben Smith reported that a "person close to Cheney" was reporting that the careful language was not symbolic of a shift in Cheney's position. I contacted a spokesperson for Cheney to confirm this, and received this emailed statement this morning: "Vice President Cheney believes that the newly released documents show that employing the EITs [Enhanced Interrogation Techniques] led to the release of new information that saved lives." I will write another post on this issue in the coming days.]
The second surprise concerns Cheney's decision not to directly address two other memos that the CIA released Monday. Back in April, in an appearance on Sean Hannity's Fox News program, Cheney was asked "Why were those tactics [waterboarding, sleep deprivation, insects] needed, necessary, and why do you think they continue to be necessary?" In his answer, Cheney said there were classified memos held by the CIA that would answer the question:
And there are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified. I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven't announced this up until now, I haven't talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country. And I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions.
These memos soon became a cause celeb for conservatives, who accused the Obama Administration of withholding key evidence showing the effectiveness of harsh interrogation. Later, in a major speech on the issue of national security, Cheney charged that Obama was intentionally withholding the memos. Said Cheney:
As far as the interrogations are concerned, all that remains an official secret is the information we gained as a result. Some of his defenders say the unseen memos are inconclusive, which only raises the question why they won't let the American people decide that for themselves.
But now that the memos have been released--with redactions--they provide no clarity to the question Cheney claimed they would answer: Did the enhanced techniques produce results? Rather the two memos describe the value of information provided by Al Qaeda detainees, which one memo calls a "crucial pillar of counterterrorism efforts." The memos, as redacted, are silent on the role of harsh interrogation in producing that information. One memo describes another effective technique--dubbed the "building block" process--that dd produce significant information. This process is an standard technique, of confronting one detainee with information from another detainee to produce more information. It does not involve any physical coercion. Does Cheney want other parts of the same memo, which were redacted in the latest release, made public? It is unclear.
The third surprise in Cheney's statement is the blanket praise he offers to CIA employees and contractors, even, apparently, those who violated the Bush Administration's own guidance. "The people involved deserve our gratitude," Cheney writes. "They do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions." The CIA IG report reveals a number of instances where CIA employees disobeyed the rather precise instructions of the Bush Administration and the Department of Justice. These are the only cases that Attorney General Holder has said he wants to pursue further. For instance, the Justice Department never gave permission to a CIA contractor to beat a detainee to death with a flashlight, an incident that is alleged in the report. And yet, in his statement, Cheney characterizes such investigations as "political investigations and prosecutions."
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1
With regard to your third surprise.
I'm pretty certain Dick has Dick on his mind not the CIA employees.-
1.1
Holder's Justice thugs ignore CIA ops rebuttal of IG report, Obama cadre adopts ACORN, CBS, Alinsky smear tactics... http://tiny.cc/2dNf7
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Let's hope this investigation ultimately ends up where it should end up -- in Cheney's office where these despicable policies were planned and enacted.
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2.1
Do you realize that your post here gives the lie to Michael's pretense that Cheney's "blanket approval" could only be for such people as the contractor with the flashlight? No, Michael is very cute about playing games with words and implications. EVERYBODY knows that the cloud of threat of investigation (hasn't Michael commented about investigations of Dick Cheney?) is not over only those people whom Holder has specifically threatened. But in this piece Michael pretends that this is the case.
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The CIA IG report reveals a number of instances where CIA employees disobeyed the rather precise instructions of the Bush Administration and the Department of Justice. These are the only cases that Attorney General Holder has said he wants to pursue further.
An important point, one which I'm sure will get lost in the demagoguery...this is not a broad investigation and possible prosecution of 'CIA personnel'...it's an investigation and possible prosecution of select cases where the interrogation/torture techniques used exceeded even the very lax standards of the Cheney and Bush administrations.
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3.1
I don't care what the polls say or who was involved either; the law is not a matter of opinion. Torture is against domestic and international law. Period, end of story.
It is striking how many people don't want to know about our use of torture, but also think it is justified.
The influence of the superficial viewpoints of the military-industrial complex is so insulting. Trying ever so desperately and endlessly to control the opinions of the people and those in power, so that we too will be Americans that are stupid enough to shoot first and not ask questions at all, accept those questions with answers we hope to hear gurgled through the voice box of some water suffocating prisoner. I suppose Republicans are proud of us torturing people?
Did we Americans torture people looking for a justification to invade Iraq? Now 4100+ US service men and women are dead and countless Iraqi civilians because Bush Inc. needed to get some oil and give Halliburton something to do. I can't believe that some Americans are OK with that. Talk about spending....how about two trillion+ tax dollars down the drain for some failed corporate hacks.
Republicans have become Marxists, in the sense that they support propping up our economy with constant defense spending.
When are conservatives going to realize that they don't have a construct beyond , distorted caricatures, broadcasted delusions, and hope that they manage to reinforce just enough cynicism and hopelessness to ensure the election of someone who truly cares only for funneling all of the country's wealth and power into the hands of a tiny, corrupt elite?
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3.2
Hey, apostasy, you want to talk about torture? Maybe you should go back before the Bush administration and see how often rendition was used before. Are you *really* ready to prosecute all who gave a nod to it? If you are so gung ho to prosecute folks under the Bush administration, I think it only fair to investigate and prosecute what went on before. Don't you?
Wow! $2 trillion! about as much as the deficit that Obama will have racked up in his first year (even if we don't include the $350 billion that G. W. left on the desk for Obama to use for fiscal stimulus).
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The outstanding question is whether the enhanced techniques were necessary to produce the information
Interesting, I thought that the main question was that whether the torture was legal or not, and not whether it produced the information or not.
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4.1
A crucial distinction.
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If people didn't think that torture might be useful, there wouldn't have been a need to make it illegal in the first place.
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Count on continued effort to obscure this simple point. -
4.2
In fact, we already know that 1) torture is and was illegal, and 2) that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- aka torture -- that was used was actually counterproductive. Everything useful that those al Queda members gave interrogators was given before the torturers went to work on them. When the torture started, they stopped giving useful information.
We have known this for months, since Ali Soufan's testimony before Congress.
Cheney is careful to tailor his statement to imply that the torture yielded useful information, but not to state the lie again outright.
He completely snookered CNN and the Politico. Looks like he damn near snookered Mikey, too.
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4.3
The crucial question for the Bush administration was not whether torture is legal or not. The question was whether waterboarding is necessarily torture according to the legal definition of torture. We may argue about whether it *should* be defined as torture, but that doesn't determine whether it *is* defined as torture.
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Very interesting, Tom. You will take the word of a member of Al Qaeda as gospel, even though that means you must assume that the CIA IG under Obama's administration is lying. (Read his report a little more carefully.) Your claim that Cheney is lying about it means by definition that the CIA IG is lying about it. (Pay careful attention to point 4 of the report.)
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Dear MS:
None of Cheney's claims should be surprising when placed beside the actual source documents. It's not about interpretations or the fact that, my god, these documents don't actually support his claims. This is all a game to him, a serious one. And you're way behind.
What will knock my socks off is if this game is actually exposed and called out on Cable News today. Will Lynne Cheney be making an appearance?
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5.1
I think our usual suspects (Morning Blow, The Most Trusted Name in News and Faux Noose ) will provide a venue for Lynn Cheney to defend Five Deferments Dick.
For any searching critique go to John Stewart.
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5.2
Do you folks really think that the Obama administration is protecting Dick Cheney -- that they would not love the news distraction of having him brought up on charges if they could be sustained?
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And do you really think that much of the news media would not love to see Cheney strung up if they could produce the goods? So why are they not forthcoming with what they have on Cheney, unless what they have is really nothing?
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6
Richard Cheney is a depraved human being, notwithstanding his genuine wish to keep the American people free. He has allowed himself to become death.
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You missed this surprise: "President Obama's decision to allow the Justice Department to investigate and possibly prosecute CIA personnel.." So does Cheney not understand that it's not up to the President to "allow" the Justice Department to investigate possible crimes?-
6.1
kathy, in Dick's world it is up to the White House to allow or disallow pretty much everything.
Even science, if need be. -
6.2
Now, what do you folks miss about the fact that the U. S. attorney general is a member of the President's cabinet? That means that the President acts sort of like a president and the members of the cabinet act sort of like members of his team. Are you with me so far?
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Sometimes the attorney general will act a bit independent. This, however, can only go as far as the President allows it to go.
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Did you follow that?
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7
his decision to remove authority for interrogation from the CIA to the White House
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Does the CIA not report to the White House?
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Or did it report to the Fifth Branch that only Cheney headed?-
7.1
Good point. What is so crazy about this whole affair is that just discussing it sounds like we're a bunch of conspiracy theorists. But this really happened. I am always hesitant to paint Cheney as some puppet master, but it is disturbing that a whole bureaucracy toed the line for so long.
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Who cares what Cheney says? he's not just a liar, he's a d*mned liar.
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The only statement I want to hear from him is the one he makes as he's being led off to prison. -
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Michael, considering what's come out in these (and other) memos, isn't it about time you guys in the media stopped using an Orwellian euphemism like "harsh interrogation program," when it's always been completely clear that we're talking about torture here. Now that the truth is out there (we've read those memos, too), why do you and your Beltway cronies insist on whitewashing what was done with this bogus lingo?
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Aye:
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"The CIA IG report reveals a number of instances where CIA employees disobeyed the rather precise instructions of the Bush Administration and the Department of Justice. These are the only cases that Attorney General Holder has said he wants to pursue further."
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'ere we are, quicker'n I were thinkin', mateys!
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Instead o' th' perfect storm o' justice descendin' t' wash th' filthy stain on our democracy 'way, wha' we be gettin' - IF we be lucky - be a passin' wee wispy-weasel waterspout o' a few low-level "rogue" operatives gettin their 'ands slapped, then we'll close th' books on th' whole sordid mess an' righteous' proclaim th' balance restored.
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S'rprise, s'rprise, s'rprise!
yarr. -
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If you are following this story, this is essential reading...
http://pubrecord.org/torture/3850/former-interrogators-criminal-probe/While this will be a political firestorm, it's worth noting that a lot veteran professional interrogators and investigators support an investigation as they feel their profession was dragged into the toilet.
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Now I guess his daughter, the Lizwitch, will be all over the friendly cable news shows, lying and only answering questions she wants to. Funny , she won't go on Countdown or Rachel Maddow.. And, of course, she will accuse anyone who doesn't agree with her of being anti-American.
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Wouldn't it be awesome if Cheney said, "How dare you prosecute these fine Americans whose work saved lives! If you want to prosecute someone, prosecute ME!" Wouldn't that just send a a chill of patriotic pride up your spine? I think it's safe to interpret whatever Cheney says as a severe case of CYA.
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14
There is no surprise here. I knew Cheney would be out defending those horrible acts. I wonder about his need to constantly defend such vicious conduct. Conduct which is obviously wrong and cannot be justified.
Somehow, I get the feeling that it is so much worse than we have been told so far.
Cheney's constant need to rebut issues raised about the Bush Administration, when the ex President Bush himself is incredibly silent about these issues, causes me to wonder why. What exactly is Cheney afraid will come to the fore? -
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Cheney popping out of the woodwork to criticize a sitting president in a time of war? Not very patriotic.
I'd dare say that Cheney is putting the safety of Americans at risk by making these questionable accusations,
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Cheney and Pete King know what most Americans know, and few libs will ever admit: 9-11 was a DIRECT result of the failed, fearful Neighborhood Watch foreign policy of the co-Clintons (USS Cole, Khobar Towers, African embassies, Taliban, Pakistan, Iran and North Korean nukes, WTC I, on and on and on).
1st Responders do not kill or capture terrorists. They handle the carnage created by terrorists, and the silly pacifistic policies that Holder and Obama seem to think will save the free world from itself.
Indeed, a few CIA and Guard interrogations were severe.
So what?
We do not behead our prisoners, throw excrement at them, rape their children in front of them, throw them into wood chippers, mine toys as a military tactic, blow up schools and churches as political targets, etc.
Kos, Obermann, Mahr, Letterman, and the rest of the resident domestic Jihaddies seem to think our good vibes will get us through whatever the Al Quedans are cooking up, if we just bash our own troops and police enough.
Oh well.
JIMMY CARTER HAPPENS.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE57O4D320090825
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16.1
Hula,
When I read the flotsam you string together to form a post, my mind wanders and I can't help but imagine what you do in the real world.
So, here's to hoping your gout heals nicely, and your back at the post office in no time.
Cheers.
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16.2
dwilli14:
As you were drooling I fired 3 more union shiite scumbags from the warehouse.
That IS what I do.
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It is now easy to understand how our government became so perverted during the Bush-Cheney regime: (1) according to Jacques Chirac, we had a President who thought that God, via the OT prophet Ezekiel (who was incredibly creepy) was telling him to conduct a holy war against Iraq so a "New Age" could begin; & (2) we had a Vice President who thinks we owe "gratitude" to a guy who beat a detainee to death with a flashlight.
Had I voted for Capt. Delusional & the Monster, I could not hold my head up.
The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com
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PS: It is high Time-CNN to stop asking Obama to blame Bush-Cheney for every liberal ill infecting the nation and world. As Tora Bora 2009 drags on from insufficient use of allied air power in the name of protecting human shields, and as Al Queda re-arms in Iraq under terms of unilateral surrender, the pinhead lefty press would do well to attend to the NOW instead of the 2004.
Move On, indeed.
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No one could have reasonably forseen the events of 9/11 and the administration's response to it. Many Independents and Conservatives who supported George W. were stunned by the response of the government following the attacks.
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20
But, the real question in most sane American minds is "how many American lives were saved by this whole process"?
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Thousands more? Perhaps a Million?
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It is nothing, absolutely nothing but an Obama witch-hunt on the Bush Administration. What better way to take the heat out of the current Health Care clamity than to accuse your predecessor of "crimes against humanity".
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Obama has one focus, and that is the total destruction of the United States of America. He has out-spent all previous Presidential Administrations combined.
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He is ALWAYS blaming the "previous Administration" for all of our failings as a country. He is putting America on the defensive every time he opens his mouth up in appeasement to our sworn enemies.
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Obama continually professes the "need to re-distribute the wealth" and that HealthCare Reform must be done in order to "save America" from financial ruin.
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Well ladies and gentlemen, Obama is the problem. He will destroy this country and our way of life. If allowed, Obama and his communist Czars have the main goal of "change we can believe in" to totally surplant everything that Americans have worked and died for.
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This will not affect anything, but completely put our American Troops, our young men and women in harms way in the Islamic Counties who want "all infidels to die". Do the Al-Qaeda's of the world use the Army Field Manual as their guide? I think not.
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Does Ahmadinejad not believe "Israel should be wiped off the face of the map"?
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While Obama through Eric Holder, the Attorney General puts on a side-show of political theatrics our soldiers are dying. I certainly hope the liberals who are pushing for all of this are happy when it all ends. How can you people sleep at night?
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The consipiracy to destroy and rebuild America in the minds of Socialist / Communists Barack Obama has begun. Americans should stand up now and voice their concerns to their Congressional Representatives. Voice their concerns for the future of this country. This idiot needs to be impeached and jailed for "crimes against American citizens".-
20.1
The administration of Obama's Republican predecessor, George W. Bush, deserves much of the blame for the dark budget picture.
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More than half of the $9 trillion the nation is projected to have to borrow over the next decade is due to Bush's refusal to pay for new initiatives, such as sweeping tax cuts, the war in Iraq and a new prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients.
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Just because Chenney and his right-wing psy-ops plant wants to revisit this story doesn't make it any more or less true. Truth is not generated simply by saying something over and over again. You can't market or sell me the truth. Get over yourselves you toe tapping Republican propagandist hacks.
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Republicans have turned out to be torture for our great country....and now they want you to be happy about it. I'm tired of the hacks like you; yall can take a long walk off a short pier. -
20.2
Maybe pictures and graphs are easier for you to understand, apostasyusa.
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The left side of the graph represents Bush's years. The right side of the graph represents the projections by the CBO for Obama.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/
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We report, you decide.
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Or, in laymans terms. Go "hack" yourself over the cliff, buddy!!
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Do you truly believe in the garbage that the Democrats and Obama feed you? Or, are you just normally this guillable? -
20.3
rustyreturns
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Trust you, don't make me laugh.
Remember...it was Bush that got the "bail out the banks" ball rolling so you can shove it with that crap propaganda.
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What planet are you conservatives living on?? Ethics: Abramoff Scandals, Libby outs a CIA operative, Gonzo politicizes Justice, and just about anyone in the White House could be labeled a liar, torture, extraordinary rendition, non FISA wiretaps.....etc........Foreign Policy: Iraq war, AQ still on the loose, Bin Laden still on the loose; and are we safer?..................Responsive Government: Katrina, bungling Iraq war intelligence, maybe even bungling the 9/11 intelligence......etc.......I'm going to do everything in my power to see that Republicans LOSE in the next elections. I mean across the board, state legislatures to the White House, there is no longer a place for Republicans in the world I want to live in. The Republican of today is an indefensible talking point repeating polarizer of nations, which in my mind no longer deserves quarter.
Republicans preferred a government that governs the least, and by those standards that's exactly what America got for the last 8 years.
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1 more fact, for the Holderites:
The Bush administration issued WARNINGS throughout the summer of 2001, particularly before the 4th of July, about the increased risk of terrorist attacks on the U.S. These very same warnings were repeated in the press, including radio and TV broadcasts in June of 2001.
Even a cursory search of audio text archives of hourly news reports will show this as FACT.
What otherwise equals truth in the bent minds of Obama, Holder, Hillary, and Boxer only Allah knows for sure.
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21.1
hulagate
What up Chenney? How is it wallowing in your disdain for the majority of Americans? Hacks like you got nothing to offer our country.
When you think of the Cheney family; think dynasty.
The Cheney's is now the face of ugliness within our great nation. The Cheney's are defenders of torture and war profits and would willfully ignore the intentions of our laws just to justify wars that will continue the profits they believe their families deserve.
Beware the intentions of people who profit in silence with the deaths, indefinite imprisonment and torture of others. The only thing the Cheney's would protect is the legacy and profits of their family, which makes them honorary members of the Blue Sky Tribe. They don't really want the enemies of people to be killed, because when there is no one to fight then the Cheney family chicken-hawks have to actually work for a living.
As the ignorant morons of our world sit in admiration of the power of the military industrial complex, the mission of the Blue Sky Tribe slowly comes to fruition as the R's and D's become divided through propaganda displayed for profit, in spite of the facts.
In the sense that they support propping up our economy with constant defense spending, Republicans have become the cynical tag that they would pin on all Ds; Marxists. Some spit in the eyes of the Cheney's is what they deserve, not air time.
The Blue Sky Tribe has not left the building......but they do want you to hate somebody.
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I don't think conservatives and liberals will ever agree on this issue. Dems blame Cheney for everything, Reps hide behind 'the greater good'. Its a grey area to be sure - lives were saved, perhaps, but at what cost? If we keep moving the line, we're going to end up back in the Dark Ages.
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22.1
Meanwhile, back in Hyannisport, Uncle Teddy just filled up the old Oldsmobile at his locally owned CITGO station, en route to SCUBA class.
I dare say Ted has killed more unwilling non-combatants than Cheney, Bush, or the CIA.
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22.2
But britneycamp, this is exactly what we are fighting against, a "Dark Ages" type adversary.
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I agree, we should not abandon our values and ideals. However, when the sworn enemies of our country will use any and all terrorist things to destroy us, do we simply roll over and let them kill us?
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If temporary measures are needed at the time, then I am all for it to be implemented. The keyword, temporary. Once the threat has been eliminated, then we can go back to our daily lives.
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But, to put this all out there in the name of Habeas Corpus and the UN's opinion of what is and what is not torture is preposterous. It is admitting to defeat.
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Where there mistakes made? I am confident of it. Does it anger me that those people did the things they did? Yes. Do I believe that someone like Dick Cheney or whomever made these decisions did so out of pure evil? No. I believe they did it in all of their best intentions to protect and defend the United States.
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Again, this is nothing short of a witch-hunt and smoke screen. It is a method and means for the current Administration to side-track the really important events occuring as we speak. It is simply a means to hide behind when their own Administration is being questioned by the American voter.
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22.3
Okay, so instead of tossing out all our freedoms and attacking the wrong country in obvious panic, like the GOPers, Obama is showing courageous faith that a nation can live by rule of law and still defeat its enemies. That makes him your hero, right?
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'...the enhanced techniques that the CIA used against some of the highest valued detainees in the war on terror were "amateurish" and that their use "plays into enemy hands", "ignores the endgame" and "diminishes the moral high ground."' (former FBI agent who witnessed the procedures.)
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Well, gee, that sure flies in the face of the self-adduced "expert opinion" of a man - Cheney - who has NEVER served or been formally trained in the military or in any law enforcement capacity or procedure. Cheney knows about as much about effective interrogation techniques as couch-potato bubba knows about triathlon training!
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This is what we get when we let two DRAFT DODGER CHICKEN HAWKS run the country and try to run two wars! -
22.4
I know a few of you guys call yourselves Christians. So to make this simple for you: "eye for an eye" is Old Testament. The kind of philosophy that prevents many middle eastern groups from ever finding peace. They are always in a "get them back" mode.
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"Turn the other cheek" is Jesus mode. You know Jesus Christ, IE: Christian. Now if you can't figure out why you don't torture your most hated enemy, no matter what he's done or threatens to do from there, I guess there isn't much else to be said.
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Why are people so hell-bent on defending people who don't give a damn about your rights and way of life?
You realize that these "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" were only used on people that the CIA actually thought might have even had any information. Don't you think the CIA has more important things to do that sit around and question low level insurgents?
These insurgents do not understand compassion, diplomacy, or compromise. They only understand force. So I have no problem when our CIA or military shows them force.
If my mind, if even a single attack was prevented, whether on US Soldiers, US embassies, or US territory, the actions of the CIA have proved themselves.
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23.1
July 2009 saw more U.S. troops killed in Afpakistan than at any time in the war -- largely due to the politically correct non-use of American airpower on Taliban and Al Queda targets, by direction of the wimp-infested lefty White House that now wants to take over CIA ops too.
When do Babs, Alec, Cindy, and Letterman leave the country for France over that?
Frank Church and Cyrus Vance must be singing praise to Obama in their communal butt buddy lounge in hell.
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23.2
It isn't about who was tortured. It's about who was doing the torturing, and who they worked for.
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.strong>Us.
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I guess you have to have a functional soul to understand such a thing -- clearly, that's something you lack. -
23.3
It's not about a functional soul here. It's about doing what is necessary to save lives.
Am I saying that we are going to round up random Iraqis and Afghans, and put them all in racks and thumb screws? No.
But if we know someone is a high level individual in a terrorist organization... well... is roughing him a big deal? Definitely not
Is making him cry? No.
Is scaring him so badly he honestly fears that he might die in prison? Maybe. Some don't deserve that, but some deserve worse. But regardless, am I going to destroy the life of a CIA agent who probably knows way more about the situation than I do? Hell no.
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23.4
We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions for a reason, spect. The fact that much of modern warfare is asymmetrical doesn't change the the fundamental value of Geneva. I'm going to post this again and keep on posting it. Air Force JAG David Frakt's closing arguments in the Mohammed Jawad case are absolutely essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the intersection between national security, constitutional democracy, and international law.
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http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss22-1/1-24.pdf -
23.5
Why are people so hell-bent on defending people who don't give a damn about your rights and way of life?
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Is this the new Communist/Socialist Democratic Party of America motto?
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Perhaps it is just the new Communist Manifesto that our dear leader, President Obama will put into place for the Democrat Party. "Change we can believe in" changes to...
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"Defend the people who don't give a damn about your rights and way of life. Go ISLAM!!!, kill kill the Americans!!! -
23.6
Am I saying that we are going to round up random Iraqis and Afghans, and put them all in racks and thumb screws.
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"It wasn't racks and thumbscrews. It was Shackles, Dogs and Light batons up the a$$"
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Nothing uncivilized mind you..... -
23.7
Posting the Frakt closing arguments again with the tags.
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23.8
Why are people so hell-bent on defending people who don't give a damn about your rights and way of life?
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Actually, I'm more concerned with defending my rights and way of life...which is why I find that compromising those rights in the name of expediency or to gain some small feeling of security abhorrent.
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But if we know someone is a high level individual in a terrorist organization... well... is roughing him [up] a big deal?
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Yes. So is killing that person. Is torturing a person to death a big deal? That's what you're defending, spect6.
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You see, we're the good guys, which means that we have to act like the good guys, even when it's inconvenient to do so.
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24
You realize that these "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" were only used on people that the CIA actually thought might have even had any information
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:7nqeTRB_F4wJ:www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf+detainees+died+in+custody&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=usYou realize that nearly 100 people have died in custody. Apparently whoever you're relying on a source of information is drastically lying.
Color me unsurprised.
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24.1
I looked at your link...
34 homicides... How do you know they are from US soldiers? Isn't it possible that it's from other prisoners? Have you seen the state of the US prison system? I don't know the number of prison homicides, sexual abuses, or beatings that take place between the prisoners themselves, but off the top of my head, nor do I feel like looking them up at work right now, but I'm pretty sure its higher than the numbers recorded there.
Also, how do you that the individuals that died in prison weren't higher level insurgents? Do you really feel bad for them?
I'm not saying that it's perfect. We just need to find ways to quickly separate people who pose a threat vs people who know very little and were just trying to make some cash by firing an RPG, but I am saying that whatever the CIA agents did, to whomever, I'm going to say that at that time, and place, they know much more than any of us here.
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24.2
I think your argument and questions are lost on the likes of Paul Dirks, spect6. He will defend the terrorists before he would defend his country.
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Plus the fact he doesn't even live in America, just one of its territories. I don't think he really gives a rat's a$$ how many American lives are lost to the Islamic Terrorists, just as long as he gets his liberal agenda acheived. -
24.3
Williams said there are 768 Army National Guardsmen and 64 Air National Guardsmen in the Virgin Islands. Sixteen soldiers from the 620th Quartermaster Water Purification Company and an aviator are deployed to Iraq, 48 soldiers from the 652nd Engineer Detachment, an Air Guardsman and a headquarters soldier are deployed to Afghanistan, and 45 soldiers from the 640th Quartermaster Water Purification Detachment and 610th Water Supply Company are deployed to Haiti. About 90 members of the 610th and the 640th are slated to deploy to the Middle East in the fall, Williams said.
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http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=16697
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Rusty's caullous disregard for the Virgin Islanders who are deployed defending his sorry ass is duly noted. But like most traitors to his country, he' somehow thinks that his US fellow citizens don't count the same as he does.
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Pretty pathetic when you think about it -
24.4
PD, you didn't get the memo? We're not "real Americans".
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Keep up w/ the rhetoric man.
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25
Urgh. How are other people getting links to show? When I previewed my link with tags it was glowing bright red in the preview box. Thought I was golden.
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25.1
Linkys don't appear in the comment replies, Pier...They'll still be there, only not showing as a link until you mouse over it...try <b> or maybe something like [brackets] to highlight a link.
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25.2
Ohhhhh… Now I see that my link did work. That makes no sense at all, but thanks for the tip, g_c
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