Lower Than Dirt

How low do you have to be to manipulate the fears of cancer victims with such bald-faced lies?

There's a special spot in Hell reserved for the people behind that letter.

Cliff, have you not listened to the right wing spread their lies? You know, I was a Republican until this election and I feel they are so out of touch with people it's unreal. I think Joe just tells it like it is.

PS Joe

Could it be you just saw the week viewing results for cable news outlets where the lowest rated Fox show had an audience 66% higher than the highest rated MSNBC show (Olbermann). In fact the 5-11 Fox lineup has 3.46 times more viewers than the top MSNBC and CNN shows for that time.

I am sure that will bring in the rants of how stupid these people are. Maybe, but they could be dumber they could be reading Time and watching MSNBC

It would not be "bipartisan" to call out liars as such.

Jihad Joe thinks new MD's, specialists, clinical trials, and lab research are on the Carnegie Deli menu, easily enough had if you can yell over the lunch hour throng.

No Joe, you yet again confirm my "goofball" status by printing such an erroneous and out-rageous blog comments like mine. The unfortunate thing is that un-suspecting people, like the wanker commenters on this site (such as myself and hulacreep) will run with it like a wild dog and it's bone. They will say things such as "rationing!" and "Obamacare!" and look like rank fools in the process. However, I truly cannot help myself. You see, I have no health insurance and cannot afford my medication.

There will be rationing, you can bet on it Joe Klein.

Kind of like the way private insurance already rations care?

Yes a public plan will "ration" care for the same reason that private insurance "rations" care; to keep costs down. Unlike private insurance, however, the government will not go line by line through the rule book looking for an excuse to drop you.

I've lived overseas. I've experienced "socialist" medicine. Yes if you want something other than the basic level of service, you have to pay for it; but I have never had to spend as much time on the phone with insurance companies and doctors as I do in the US. It's a mess here, and you know it.

Furthermore, if you don't want the public plan, then don't sign up for it. It's your choice. You'll always be able to buy additional coverage if you want to spend more. No one is going to tell you that you can't get the latest and most expensive treatment (other than your private insurance company of course). If you have the money, you'll get it.

Another poisonous creep from Fantasyland.

Look pal, be for and against anything your little pin head desires. But try to use actual information occassionally when you justify your oponions. Or don't bother to justify them.

You are perfecftly entitled to say: "--I am a ninny. I am agaimst xyz because it makes me feel all ooky."

But quit trotting out the same tired disproven BS, or expect to be abused. My personal tolerance for morons with diarhea of the mouth is fairly low just about now.

Rusty, do you realize you're citing an op-ed? You know, those things that frequently don't get fact-checked. If this is as serious as you claim, I'm sure you can find something more substantial than a wsj op-ed.

"Overall, according to a study published in Lancet Oncology last year, five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada."

That's because the US is very good at cancer research. We should be. We spend massive amounts of money on it. 75% of all bio-pharmaceutical R&D is done here in the US. Advanced cancer treatments are done here as well. Consequently, we pay high prices for those treatments.

Let me put this as simply as I can: the existence of a public plan will not bar you from getting those treatments. If you have the money for the treatment, you can always get it. The public plan is supposed to provide a low-cost, effective, basic level of service to the aggregate populace. No one is going to force you to sign up for it.

If for whatever reason you do end up on the public plan, you can still purchase additional private insurance if you find the public option lacking. Frantically waving the scary rationing flag around is only making you look stupid.

Look chump: Three points your simple brain won't grasp.

1. England is close to the weakest health care system in Europe. Even it outperforms us not only in measures that have a demographical or lifestyle component (life expectancy, infant mortality) but in the measurement known as "deaths per 1000 treatable illnesses", which does not. Many others, such as France, Germany, and Sweden, have 1/3 to 1/2 the deaths per 1000 treatable illnesses that the US does.

All of them cover everybody and spend less money to boot.

The US system e better at cancer treatment. What it's NOT better at is keeping people healthy, and keeping them alive. in a cost-effective way.

No go spew your poisonous fantasies some more.

Didn't you get the memo? Facts don't matter in a debate, only opinion.

I love it when Mormons complain about communists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_consecration. Btw, the law of consecration is still on the books as doctrine, the practice thereof has just been suspended until the membership is righteous enough to practice it. See also, Mormon polygamy.

jcapan says:
BECK: [Jones is] basically a community organizer inside the framework of our republic. That's what's happening. When Barack Obama said, “I am going to promise you fundamental transformation of our nation,” this is what's happening. We are bringing community organizations and community organizers and we're embedding them inside of the system to build a new framework. This guy in particular, and he's not the only one, and you'll see more tonight, this guy in particular is an avowed communist, communist!
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Do you have anything that disputes Beck's claims, jcapan?
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Please show me where Van Jones does not state not once but MANY times that he is an avowed Communist?
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Please show us jcapan where Van Jones has moved from one radical group to the other in his quest to become Obama's right hand man?
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Perhaps you would be interested in this article jcapan.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/200908256166/editorial/glenn-beck-closing-in-on-van-jones.html
"Among other things, he revealed that Jones was a leading member of a Marxist organization known by the acronym STORM, which means Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement. A 96-page history of the organization mentions how several STORM members had traveled to Cuba in the summer of 1999 as part of the Venceremos Brigade. This is the group that was originally sponsored by the Castro regime and the Weather Underground.
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Perhaps not, not only do we have the acronyms for ACORN afloat, but now STORM.
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Perhaps we shall see other Obama associates with other acronyms as well.
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Why does Obama hide from his Communist, his Black Theology, his ACORN friends? Or is he?
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I agree with one thing jcapan. I agree with your statement to Joe Klein too "So, help us out a bit here, Mr. [Klein], I hold Fox, Rush & Drudge in utter contempt--how is your behavior (alleged mind you) at this party any different than Beck's above response?"
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Yes Joe, how can you simply stand by and not report on facts as other news organizations are now reporting on Obama's friendships and acquaintances? Why are you, a TIME reporter, not also investigating Obama's radical relationships?
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Are You and TIME going to be scooped yet again Joe Klein, as you sit with your hood-wink on provided by the Obama Administration?

t-king,
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Thanks for the heads-up about Beck's conversion. Adds an delicious new layer to his brand of crazy. OTOH, is anyone really better off knowing more about loons like this? Thank kamisama he doesn't appear on my telly.

Rusty:

Van's comments were about the days of his youth, not the present. He was specifically referring to his time spent as a young man in LA during the riots of 1992 after the Rodney Kind trial. You've read one blog post which had one paragraph taken from a very long article. Van Jones is an upstanding man who has spent quite a bit of time trying to improve the lives of people much worse off than yourself. If you actually had a shred of humanity in you, you'd understand.

I posted a comment a couple of days ago asking what is a civil liberties "absolutist" and have yet to hear a response (hint). It's crazy how our political and media elite interpret the constitution.

Civil liberties is an American value. Torture is not.

I'm glad you posted your link to those satisfaction ratings there Derek. It really makes your opinions, credible.

Here you go Rusty.

"Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care (search) even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

The study shows that people in the U.S. face longer wait times to see doctors and have more trouble getting care on evenings or weekends than do people in other industrialized countries. At the same time, Americans were more likely to receive advice on disease prevention and self-care than others.

One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed."

U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction

"WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Among the residents of all 30 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries Gallup surveyed between 2006 and 2008, Americans' satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization's highest GDPs per capita."

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

This study, like all respectable studies performed over the last 15 years, shows similar results:

The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. This report, which includes information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries' health systems, confirms the patient survey findings discussed in previous editions of Mirror, Mirror. It also includes information on health care outcomes that were featured in the U.S. health system scorecard issued by the Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance Health System.

Among the six nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in the 2006 and 2004 editions of Mirror, Mirror. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. The 2007 edition includes data from the six countries and incorporates patients' and physicians' survey results on care experiences and ratings on various dimensions of care.

The most notable way the U.S. differs from other countries is the absence of universal health insurance coverage. Other nations ensure the accessibility of care through universal health insurance systems and through better ties between patients and the physician practices that serve as their long-term "medical home." It is not surprising, therefore, that the U.S. substantially underperforms other countries on measures of access to care and equity in health care between populations with above-average and below average incomes.

With the inclusion of physician survey data in the analysis, it is also apparent that the U.S. is lagging in adoption of information technology and national policies that promote quality improvement. The U.S. can learn from what physicians and patients have to say about practices that can lead to better management of chronic conditions and better coordination of care. Information systems in countries like Germany, New Zealand, and the U.K. enhance the ability of physicians to monitor chronic conditions and medication use. These countries also routinely employ non-physician clinicians such as nurses to assist with managing patients with chronic diseases.

The area where the U.S. health care system performs best is preventive care, an area that has been monitored closely for over a decade by managed care plans. Nonetheless, the U.S. scores particularly poorly on its ability to promote healthy lives, and on the provision of care that is safe and coordinated, as well as accessible, efficient, and equitable.

For all countries, responses indicate room for improvement. Yet, the other five countries spend considerably less on health care per person and as a percent of gross domestic product than does the United States. These findings indicate that, from the perspectives of both physicians and patients, the U.S. health care system could do much better in achieving better value for the nation's substantial investment in health.

As it says in your link, Derek.
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"Among the residents of all 30 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries Gallup surveyed between 2006 and 2008, Americans' satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization's highest GDPs per capita."
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Try again Derek, please try again. I am an open person I truly am.
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And, I do believe there are "reforms" which need to happen. But, ObamaCare as it is currently conceived will fail. If not from complete financial ruin for our Country, simply from Government negligence.
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But your link also does not take into account the shear numbers of people who will flood into the ObamaCare Single Payer Option. Which anyone knows that has a brain is what we will end up with in 2 to 5 years after this is passed.
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300 million people in the US, as opposed to Britains 50 million? To Canada's 31 million people?
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Both systems are already nearly banrupting their countries. You actually believe the crap spewed out by Obama that this will not cost anything to the American taxpayer?
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I for one would like to be marginally satisfied with a system that actually exists, as opposed to one that will not exist at all in a few years.

Rusty Obama hasn't said what his plan is and what is your evidence that Canada's health care system is bankrupting the country? They pay less than half per capita of what the US pays, a function I would imagine of amortizing the costs over a large number of people, centralizing administration, bulk purchasing and so on.

Hmm Obama doesn't have a plan but he says people are spreading lies about it and it will provide better care and service and it will not add to the deficit. He is not Obama he is Karnak.

Why are people spreading lies about a plan that hasn't been announced yet? Obama has laid out some principles, but not a detailed plan. It seems to me there are several plans floating around, none of which Obama has laid claim to. The right, as usual, are spreading lies in hopes of stopping any plan that might arise, while at the same time claiming they are also interested in reforming the health system.

Americans' satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization's highest GDPs per capita.
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These words, they do not mean what you think they mean.

He has laid out principles but not a plan? Talk about dancing on the head of a pin! He is on record as wanting a single payer system. That is a principle. Not a lie ! He said it must be deficit neutral. The only announced plan is not. The CBO says that is a lie (for Obama). Since he has no plan how can he guarantee it won't add to the deficit, ration care or decrease service? Death panels are said to be a lie, yet the Senate fianace committee dropped something that didn't exist while the VA still has it as a published policy.
He is on record as saying abortions needs to be covered then says that's a lie. He has stated AARP is on Board. AARP begs to differ. What was AARP on board with his principles?

Having you dimbulbs run around screaming "they are lying they are lying" is theater of the absurd. By virtue you don't agree doesn't make it a lie.

He is on record as wanting a single payer system.

Do your homework. He said his preference would be a single payer system if he was designing one from scratch. Since we aren't designing one from scratch, this means we aren't going for a single payer system. It's not rocket science dude.

He said it must be deficit neutral. The only announced plan is not.

And how is this Obama's fault?

Death panels are said to be a lie, yet the Senate fianace committee dropped something that didn't exist...

The Senate Finance Committee dropped end of life counseling because of the lies. The lies, it seems, were sticking around much better than the truth. Also, you know which Senator introduced the end-of-life counseling amendment? A republican. Death panels is a lie. Period.

He is on record as saying abortions needs to be covered then says that's a lie.

The lie about abortion is that the government will force people to have them, that the government will make hospitals allow them (consequently forcing all catholic hospitals to close), and that the government will use public money to pay for them. Obama has said the public plan needs to cover reproductive care, but all the bills have wording in them that says no public money shall be used to fund abortions other than ones for cases of rape or incest, or where the life of the mother is threatened.

You shouldn't believe everything you read, freeinpa.

The Times has a pretty good blog post about the situation in Japan:

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/health-care-abroad-japan/

Oregon JC:
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Thanks for the link.
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Where was the Times' reporting on this crazy situation 15 years ago until now, I wonder?

Please tell me you're not practicing medicine with that brain.

Thanks for making me choke on my coffee.

No worries shep. He just pretends when he is here.
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Other things he says he is besides being a "Physician"
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1) Successful small business owner (who will lay people off after the last presidential election)
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B) Viet Nam vet who was vilified when he came home
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III) Family man with family and friends serving in Iraq
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Four) Sane

Funny how countries with nationalized health care pay less than we do. If you are worried about cost, Rusty, you should be begging for rationing.

Maybe because the average JNS article has the nutritional value of a dog turd warmed up in a styrofoam tray, and we tell her so?

Amy said in her recent post that she was on vacation last week ...and got sick. But she has written some interesting articles that have NOT made their way to here, such as two July pieces on teen foster girls and abortion bill compromises. As for Jay's piece, did she write while on holiday (KT?) or write it ahead of time?

LOL@hotbbq

No one said the UK's health care system was perfect. No one is proposing a complete copy of their health care system either. So really your argument doesn't mean anything. But don't mind me; keep beating that strawman. Eventually you might hit a decent argument.

And what about liberal propaganda? Lower than pond scum?

People watch the shows for reasons other than entertainment. That may be your interpretation. It appears you suffer from the same all knowing all judging pompous opinions that has befallen the once almighty Obama. Two things are certain: Those people aren't as dumb as you think they are and you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.

freeinpa:
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A recent statistic found that guests on Fox News shows were overwhemingly (69%) against the Democrats health care plan, with only 11% supporting. Something tells me this is not an accurate depiction of where the public stands on health care. If Fox News' audience can't recognize that Fox New is not fair and balanced, then yes, I believe they are stupid.
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I also think people are stupid when they yell at their representatives at town halls to get their government hands out of their Medicare.
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Also, the reason why Fox News has higher ratings is because intelligent people find cable news disgusting.

Because the US is very good at providing advanced treatment for those that can afford it. Something tells me that the foreigners that come to the US for medical treatment have very deep pockets.
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The US is not good at providing a low cost and effective basic level of service to the aggregate populace. Hence everyone pays very high premiums in this country for health care, and much of that cost is shouldered by our industry. What US industry to be competitive? Do something about the cost of health care.
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No one is suggesting we forsake all those advanced treatments and level the playing field across the board. Is your strawman dead yet? Give the guy a rest already.

First, you make the erroneous assumption that HC is a right for all workers. Second, if you run a business, you don't run to the government to fix every problem.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
run out of other people's money.”

Yes, Obama's no Nixon.

Obama's wage and price controls will obviosuly work wonders.

Just like his union shill of a bogus stimulus bill, botched foreclosure bailouts, amazing AIG bonus management, tentative full blown Tora Bora 2009, race baiting, cop bashing, CIA crashing, Lockerbie influencing list of grand hopes and cool changes.

He's the George McGovern we never had.

To impeach.

If Barack can get healthcare costs to go down..........

IF is the multi-trillion dollar question isn't it.? There has never been a government entitlement program that has come even close to the expected cost estimates. In fact, they are typically multiples of those estimates.

There are 3 things that will occur: Costs will rise, Services will be cut and the deficit will rise

SInce "progressives" seem to have as their defense everybody lies (except of course). What Obama has planned is not Health Insurance Reform -- It is an Entitlement!

Ooh, getting tag-teamed by hula and freeper. That sucks, dude.

Yeah, it's like your wife promising you a threesome on your birthday and then you find out it's with Rosie O'Donnel and some bag lady with syph.

You know they're into it, though. We libs claim to be the lascivious ones, but the red states are where the kink is at.
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I'll bet freeper wants to give Tucker Carlson's bowtie a twirl right now.

Still hitting the milk duds, hula? Or is that some other brown stuff coming out of your mouth?

Too bad free health care won't fix stupidity or you could be first in line.

Murders because people die from inadequate health care. Start the Grand juries for the heads of McDonalds, KFC and Coke. People have heart attacks from poor diets and obesity so they must be murderers too.

Anti-buisness? Gee you didn't get the memo (or maybe you could not read it) from your other lib pals who constantly flail against conservatives for being money grubbing pro business flacks. Beside the idiotic comparison you suck at math or like the President never has run a business.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm

Costs for legally required benefits, including Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and
workers' compensation, averaged $2.28 per hour (7.8 percent of total compensation)

The average cost for health insurance benefits was $2.00 per hour worked in private industry (7.3 percent of
total compensation) in March 2009. In March 1999, employer costs for health benefits averaged $1.03, or 5.4 percent
of total compensation.

That is a growth rate of 6.9% per year. Hardly the double digit crisis the LIARS on the left are tossing around. It is true that the cost of health care is higher for union jobs 11.4% of wages while non-union is 6.6%. It is apparent that the most inefficient, least accountable part of our economy- unions- is breaking the back of business and the economy with ridiculous costs for the business. Airlines, Steel, autos all bankrupt by unions- See a pattern yet?

And if you believe that health care is better in Canada, Cuba or Costs Rica, please by all means GO There.

OK Freeinpa, you can get a job too. The reason why non-union health care cost is lower is because the user pays not the employer. The cost isn't lower, just the part paid by the employer.

I said and I mean it: murderer. You would rather have your fellow citizen die from lack of care than work for real reform And you are doing everything you can to not help your fellow citizen.

I said it and I meant it: idiot. 30 countries have cheaper and better health care than we do, and you don't want to implement anything that looks like those better systems.

I have run businesses, Freeper, and I would fire anyone who looked at things that worked and decided that, ideologically, they don't approve and so they won't implement. We're in a global competition, Freeper. Get in and start helping. We need productive people who can deal with the truth.

Thanks dullard proving once again the true nut jobs reside on the left.

No, you can do better than that. For example, Mr. I Ran a Business, tell me what you'd do if one of your employees decided to not fix something that was destroying the business. We'll wait.