Biden: To Russia, With No Love
Vice President Joe Biden was in Ukraine and Georgia last week to reassure the former U.S.S.R. counties that President Obama's emphasis on rebuilding relations with Moscow doesn't mean that U.S. has forgotten about their sovereignty. On the way home, Biden had some colorful comments for the Wall Street Journal:
"Russia has to make some very difficult, calculated decisions," Mr. Biden said. "They have a shrinking population base, they have a withering economy, they have a banking sector and structure that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years, they're in a situation where the world is changing before them and they're clinging to something in the past that is not sustainable."
Biden, I'm told, was simply trying to play bad cop to Obama's good cop. After all, the straightforward, nice guy “I looked into his eyes and saw his soul” routine wasn't exactly effective. This isn't the first time Biden's propensity for telling it like it is has gotten him in to trouble. So, while it's usually the VP's job to play bad cop, maybe saying that they're on the brink of becoming an irrelevant third world country takes things a little too far.
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1
"After all, the straightforward, nice guy “I looked into his eyes and saw his soul” routine wasn't exactly effective."
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Aaaaaaah. Gotta love the cheap shot at Bush.
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In any event, rubbing the Russians noses in their problems (which many Russians are very wary of) doesn't seem like such a great idea. -
2
Biden's propensity for telling it is has gotten
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Needs editing.
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Do you mean propensity for 'telling it like it is'?-
2.1
I think she's just trying to give Biden a break. As all beltway journalists see it: truth = gaffe.
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3
..maybe saying that they're on the brink of becoming an irrelevant third world country takes things a little too far.
Nope. Biden is not saying anything the Russians don't already know;
Natalya Timakova, a spokeswoman for Mr. Medvedev, declined to comment on Mr. Biden's remarks. Ms. Timakova acknowledged that the Russian government is currently looking at many of the issues he raised -- including economic challenges, the banking sector and the country's shrinking population.
and the notion of Russia becoming an 'irrelevant third world country' is yours, Jay, unless you have some special insight into Biden's mind that you can share.
it's like you didn't even read the entire WSJ article you linked to. Sloppy.
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4
grape_crush: I read the whole article and the whole interview. And, yes, he's not saying anything Russia doesn't know. But in what world is baldly telling them that a good move diplomatically? It's one thing to be tough, quite another to be insulting.
Dirks: It's fixed, tnx.
JNS-
4.1
Jay, are you going on ABC soon? Maybe you can suggest appointing Sarah Palin as Ambassador or Special Envoy to Russia. She'll keep an eye on them; will help her build foreign policy street cred too.
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4.2
But in what world is baldly telling them that a good move diplomatically?
A) It's realistic, which encourages good-faith negotiation.
B) It puts (or at least helps to create the impression that) you are negotiating from a position of strength.Turning it around: What good does ignoring the current state of Russia do when giving an assessment of the diplomatic challenges the US has in its relationship with that country?
You focused on the WSJ headline and concluded that Biden's remarks were an insult. Why not ask some Russian leaders their thoughts instead of interposing your own interpretation of how much their feelings were hurt?
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4.3
Come on, grape_crush, you lose whatever cred you have in here with such nonsense.
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First of all, your "what good does ignoring it do" comment is plain silly. Just because someone doesn't comment on something doesn't mean that the person is "ignoring" it.
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Second of all, how likely is it that Biden thought this through before opening his trap?
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Third of all, when you are negotiating from a position of strength, you don't have to advertise to all concerned.
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Fourth of all, listing all of Russia's problems in such a manner is insulting. That you don't see that says a lot more about you than it does about JNS. -
4.4
"It's one thing to be tough, quite another to be insulting."
I agree and despite the (non-Cheney) irrelevance of the office, I still think Biden's a wanker. But perhaps you could share that insight with Mikey, Jay, so the next time he crudely disparages an entire nation, he'll at least be self-aware:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/07/16/what-remains-rotten-in-russia/
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4.5
Michael needs to spend a year in Russia as TIME's Moscow correspondent, engage in nightly drinking games, and find a really hot Russian girlfriend. This might finally warm him up to them.
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4.6
Despite being rather well-written, I did not much care for MS's article, either. A little too all-inclusive in his allegations of a social propensity for corruption and violence. While these trends certainly exist, I would not suggest they are cultural blanket norms. And again, just as Biden's comment, such an article is easily countered by a harsh Russian critique of American social flaws.
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5
Hm, you did you for the potshot. That's a shame, because you could have just as easily remarked on the disparity between Biden's current attitude and our own State Department's famous overcharge button...
Good cop/bad cop routine? If that's what the White House has planned...er...wasn't this the era of smart diplomacy? Joe Klein? Joe?
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6
Don't worry guys, JNS thinks that the whole rest of the world is governed by Kyoto . . . .
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She's probably right that Biden's comments are counterproductive. After all, when's the last time our esteemed VP ran his mouth off and actually said something intelligent? -
7
Did anyone read the WSJ article which sites this Russian professor who absolutely believes the U.S. is going to break apart into something like 6 seperate countries? All by the year 2012? Apparently this professor has gotten a lot of play on the state run media over there.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html -
8
Of course everybody's pretending that Biden's comments occured in a vaccuum and that the interview questions and the WSJ editing have nothing to do with the tone of the article.
It's not like they don't have their own agenda that needs to be taken into account when evaluating the effect of Biden's remarks.
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8.1
Hahaha...I'd like to know what kind of context could frame this properly.
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9
Come on PD, you know what they say about excuses--they're like ______, and they all stink.
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Biden opened his yap without any concern for how the comments would be received . . . .
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I liked Slow Joe better when he was telling everyone how intelligent he is. -
10
JNS -- while I take no pleasure in insulting you, I'm afraid that responding to your post honestly, will result in me doing exactly that. You really need to refrain from analysis, because you're inability to question the validity of your sources, because they are fellow journalists, renders you inadequate for the task. In fact, you are quite reminiscent of Scott McClellan, charging out to repeat the lies and innuendos fostered by others and whose position as a member of the team renders unable to question the validity of that information, but ultimately, playing the role when all is said and done as the rube. Jay, you are being played. You are being used to advance an agenda that would be thwarted coming from more partisan sources.
It's funny, while the conservative right castigates the mainstream liberal press, they don't hesitate to quote them as a source of standing whenever they can get them to tote their propaganda line.
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10.1
You mean, quote Biden when he unwittingly confirms common Biden stereotypes?
This doesn't really have anything to do with the media.
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11
I'm having some difficulty here. The same people who are jumping over Biden for making unflattering references to the current state of the Russian economy are the same ones who were cheerleading the notion of shipping arms directly to former Soviet client states and are insistent that strategic consideration be damned, we should still be installing fresh missle batteries in eastern Europe.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/behind_the_scenes_scheunemann.php
Since when are Conservatives suddenly concerned that a Democrat might be too beligerent?
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11.1
While I don't have a fully formed opinion on the missile shield, it is an issue that at least has two camps. The issue of whether to insult Russia isn't such hotly contested territory.
Besides, two wrongs don't make a right.
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11.2
Let's not forget McCain's advocacy of throwing Russia out of the G8.
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12
Jay, I just read your tweet (I don't have twitter). Sorry to hear about suspicious pkg., hope all is well. Do you have a decent TIME cafeteria or Panera, etc. to have lunch? Or just eat a peanut butter sandwich and vending machine candy bars while stuck in the office? Two years ago my last job faced an unknown pkg. The fire dept. cleared the bldg. It was a suitcase at the main door. Several were placed around the city that day. All contained women's clothing, bras, panties, etc. I never knew if anyone got caught.
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13
I guess it's OK to threaten Russia like Cheney did in 2008, just don't insult them the way...the way that Jay says that Biden did today.
This has been another episode of IOKIYAR.
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14
No Democrat has the right to say "IOKIYAR" . . . . Senator Kennedy, anyone?
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16
Looks like someone has found the US version of
http://www.debka.com/index1.php
Plausability is no object.....
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17
I am not a big fan of Biden, but calling it like you see it in this manner is not insulting. Russia and the US are antagonists, they always have been. They relish opportunities to highlight the woes of the other. Russia rarely misses an opportunity to criticize US policy or question US primacy. However, with that said, I do disagree with Biden's overall analysis. He claims that Russia's abilities have been overestimated, while American influence has been underestimated. In fact, though, the US really has no bargaining power with regard to Russia. We have little common ground in international initiatives, with the exception of combating terrorism. The recent bombing in Chechnya highlights this area of agreement. However, despite that, security initiatives often clash between the two. NATO. SCO. Missile Defense System. Middle East. Economically, the US has little influence as trade integration is not well entrenched, with Russia moving ever more towards the BRIC bloc, as well as monopolizing European energy markets. The truth is, Russia will never rely on American say-so and sovereignty will always trump any diplomatic carrot the US has to offer, so Biden's assertion that the US has the means of reining in Russia is baseless, however it was not insulting in the least bit.
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17.1
I find this interesting, and you do have a lot of supporting groundwork, although I'm not completely sold yet. In basic diplomacy, wouldn't it make sense to at least try to maintain the pretense of, er, something...I guess what I'm trying to say is restraint in language would be a good goal, right?
Problem is, even if such language is justified, it still runs aground of the AmeriRusso PR effort after Obama's election. In fact, it's practically beached.
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17.2
Agree with Biden not being insulting, but is this another round of BRIC = The Other Cold War Meat[tm] / new USSR bent on global domination? As per our last debate in JK's “Shot Down”, let's try to be friends with R and C to avoid a self-fulfilling prophecy, yes? no? Including McDonalds as a cultural weapon in chess game of USSR vs. The World (which you oppose / I approve)? But I concede about Megan Fox; Anne Hathaway would make a superior cultural ambassador.
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17.3
Yoshi
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Yes, in diplomacy, civility goes a long way. As does frankness. If Biden truly believes that Russia is imploding from within it is relevant for him to voice this issue, informing Russia that America still holds the primacy between the two. The hint is that Russia should be cautious in its self-reliance, thus nudging closer coordination with the US.Unfortunately, in my opinion, Biden's conclusion is incorrect. Russia is far from any significant long-term slide. While they do in fact have many internal economic problems, the same could be said for the US. Even a cursory examination of the American economy shows many alarming trends, well realized over the past several years. Russia can reasonably respond to his criticism with an exposé on the failures of American capitalism, notably the banking woes, a dilapidated auto industry, and the vicissitudes of housing mortgages. Biden's analysis leaves an open door for a Russian critique of US stability. In this regard, his comments were not helpful and largely inaccurate. I still hesitate to call them an insult, though.
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17.4
Deconstructiva
We're still on different pages with regard to Russia's growing influence. However, I am not contending that Russia seeks global domination. What I see is Russia seeking to form a powerful bloc, including China, Brazil, India and others, with Russia largely at the helm. BRIC and SCO are clearly indicative of this design. The goal is to off-set American dominance, not necessarily replace it. If my assertions are accurate, then I see little reason why Russia would seek a closer arrangement with the US. As I have noted in our earlier discussions, Russia scores major domestic points by taking an anti-western stance and Russia gains internationally by marketing itself as the antithesis to the US. Therefore, the Biden/Obama initiative is, in my opinion, unattainable.
Furthermore, American globalization of mediocre cultural ouputs is not the way to seduce a hostile world. Internationally, American social trends of fast-food indulgence, celebrity adoration, and materialistic madness are scoffed at. The 1990s saw the boom of such exports as nations viewed the capitalist-driven markets as a superior to stagnancy of the past. During this time they were willing to submit to such American courting and ideals. The atmosphere is shifting now, however, with more and more backlash to American encroachment on traditional cultures around the globe. You can upgrade the product from McDonalds/Fox to Panera/Hathaway, but the general image remains the same. It is still contemptible.
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17.5
Exiled, I'm glad we disagree, even about BRIC, which I still think is more a CNBC creation than a true alliance. Those four countries do biz with each other, just as we do with Canada and Mexico. That doesn't mean NAFTA is a second NATO – and THAT group has to change their world view now that the USSR is no more. Whither Turkey…or Iran (you've made good points about Iran before)…or Georgia? And aren't both Europe and Russia bothered by Islamic terrorists (Chechnya)? As for American Culture, Inc., check out MCD's oversees sales and profits. Only recent currency fluctuations caused weaker #'s, not overall sales (they went up again). And sometimes, people don't agree with what you or I like. Do you adore Britney Spears? I don't. But her tour is a huge hit, including oversees, which even Michael Scherer noticed 7/11 tweet + cross-link photo http://twitpic.com/a110y …but again is that so bad? Would a Russian tour by Katy Perry singing “I Kissed a Girl” warm even Putin's cold heart just a little? Or we can send Sarah Palin to Russia, finally.
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17.6
Well, I get my news on BRIC and SCO not from CNBC, but from Itar-Tass, Asia Times and transcripts from these conferences and summits, most recently in Yekaterinburg, Russia. The rhetoric employed by the participants speaks for itself.
As for Putin, I like him. Less so though if "I Kissed A Girl" actually melted his heart, even slightly.
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17.7
You've mentioned Putin's brilliant diplomatic aptitude, and I agree. He'd make a great poker player. If he enters the World Series of Poker he'd easily win a bracelet or two.
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18
Jay, glad all is well with the pkg. thingy per twitter...and good job with that ABC interview, especially pointing out Sarah's personal / media split. Don't fret about Biden. He won't push Russia into the arms of BRIC / Evil Empire.
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8184618 -
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Silly Biden. We're supposed to insult Iran and France, not Russia.
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19.1
Excellent point Art.
Now if someone wants a horrible salad dressing in the Congressional dining room they should be made to call it Freedom Dressing.
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20
The truth hurts and makes a lot of politicians, and let's face it, every day people, whiny. And so, that's why it's usually frowned upon.
But I think we can all agree that Putin and Medvedev might need some aloe for that burn.
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21
I just thought of something--you know when I mentioned that Biden was just running his yap, I was dead wrong about that. Rather, Biden was simply projecting. When someone insults the US, the Obama Administration will roll. I guess Biden thinks that's how the world works.
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Apologies, all. My bad. -
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[...] Jay Newton-Small at Swampland: Biden, I’m told, was simply trying to play bad cop to Obama’s good cop. After all, the straightforward, nice guy “I looked into his eyes and saw his soul” routine wasn’t exactly effective. This isn’t the first time Biden’s propensity for telling it like it is has gotten him in to trouble. So, while it’s usually the VP’s job to play bad cop, maybe saying that they’re on the brink of becoming an irrelevant third world country takes things a little too far. [...]
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