Hamas Wants to Talk

Interesting article. I should note, though, that Hamas has wanted to publicly negotiate for some time now, yet they have been continually blocked by Israel. In 2005 a Hamas delegation was refused negotiations by EU officials after PM Sharon demanded that Hamas not be given any voice in discussions. Despite Israeli opposition, though, there have been many secret discussions between Hamas officials and US, EU officials, withheld from public view in keeping with the notion of not negotiating with 'terrorists.' Obviously, though, with the lack of public endorsement, little has been accomplished in that regard. Thus it is vital for progress, that Hamas be accepted as an instrumental player in any proposed negotiations.

The Israelis don't want peace. At least the right-wing Israelis which is about 51% of the Israeli population plus AIPAC and their friends in Congress don't want peace. Even if the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs/Muslim world agreed to everything the right-wing Israelis claim they want, the Israelis would walk away from the treaty or find someway to screw it up.
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The right wing - both in Israel and in the United States - needs an enemy in order to make sense of their world. They are wired to seek out enemies. After the Soviet Union fell the GOP cast around for a few years for an enemy. The turned their attention on Bill and Hillary Clinton for awhile. Then 9/11 happened and they were back in the business. Hating Muslims has been good business for them.
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For proof just look at how the neo-cons reacted to the Iranian election. They WANTED the extremists in Iran to win so as not to deprive them of their enemy. You can also look at how hard they have resisted any efforts to get the US off oil from the Middle East. Lessening our reliance on the Saudi might, some day, mean we would acquire the upper hand in our relationship with the very people who aided and abetted 9/11. Yet the GOP has zero interest in taking the steps to achieve this sustainable competitive advantage.
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So, it doesn't matter if Hamas sincerely wants to talk or not. As long as the governments of the US and Israel are dominated by people like Steny Hoyer and Dick Cheney whose political and business interests are served by having Arab/Muslim world be an enemy then peace will never happen.
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As Ezra Klein said the other day, "We have a political system that most observers can confidently predict will be completely unable to avert the fiscal or the climate crisis. That's like a police force that can't respond to emergency calls, or a fire department unable to put out fires,"

but the only people who don't want seem to want to talk these days are the Likudnik Israelis, Ahmadineocon Iranians and the U.S. neocons...in other words, the extreme right-wing factions in their respective countries. Strange bedfellows, one might say, except they aren't.
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Edit needed.....
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The fact that war-cheerleaders and the people who push for conflict are in fact allies with their counterparts across the divide is easy to see if your looking for it. Ironically the more isolated their position and the more the people who desire peace find their voice, the louder and more forced their shouting becomes.

Complicating the process are the divisions within each of the respective governments. Talking with the factions actually in power instead of hoping to negotiate with factions we may wish were in power just adds to the mess. Dealing with the demands of the right wing faction here may be the most problematic of all. The republicans have made it clear that they don't want Obama to succeed in anything he does. Any success in the region could have a negative impact on their chances in 2010 and beyond, so they're going to throw up every roadblock and undermine him in any way they can.

Joe Klein:
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Well done referencing the arguments of the eminently sane and reasonable Greenwald.
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It's heartening to witness the intellectual honesty on your part that allows you to move beyond the heated civil liberties disputes between the two of you.

Heartening to say the least. Coming on the heels of his work re: Iran (heresies aired casually) I feel as if the foundation of my media-crit has the slightest of chinks.

choska: it's ridiculous to say that the Israelis don't want peace. Do you think they like having their children shot at? Do you think they like having to hide in their homes for fear of rocket attacks?
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Are there some that want to fight any and all Arabs? Probably. But the Israelis have bent over backward for years to end this conflict so both parties could just live, while the other side continually spit in their face. If you were fighting with your neighbors, at what point would you stop taking their sh!t and get hostile about it? Arafat could've gotten just about anything he wanted - except for the mass suicide of the Israeli people - if he'd stayed at the table to negotiate. Instead, he led Albright on a chase out of the building and called for another Intifada.
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I don't agree with everything that Israel is currently doing, but, like I said, at some point, you have to stop being Mr. Nice Guy, and get mean. Lets see Hamas come to the table, in sincerity, and then we'll talk about who wants peace.

Typical of Israeli tactics is Netanyahu's recent "acceptance" of a Palestinian state tied to conditions, of course, in that it would need to be entirely de-militarized and disarmed. Naturally no self respecting people could accept this precondition in that no self-relying state can hope to exist without an armed forces and legitimate law enforcement. Yet now Israel can claim that they offered peace and it was rejected, thus perpetuating their propaganda that the Arabs, more specifically Palestinians, reject peace.

Nice Guy
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You are sadly misinformed. The sheer magnitude of Israeli oppression since 1947 has led to the precise feeling you are describing, yet it is applicable to the Palestinians not Israelis. While war was a constant threat from neighboring Arab states, the Palestinians did not become militant until the 1970s and as a direct result of blatant, ceaseless Israeli aggression. Just as Hezbollah is the direct product of an 18 year occupation of Lebanon, the PLO and later Hamas are directly the product of Israeli transgressions, oppression, racism, and subjugation.
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You should read the following:
Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky
Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid by Jimmy Carter
One Country by Ali Abunimah
...also the article...
How Israel Brought Gaza to the Brink of Humanitarian Disaster by former Israeli IDF officer Avi Shlaim

Joe,

How is that "breezy" Iranian freedom you wrote about two weeks ago working for you? Still breezy?

When will you media hacks stop peddling your Obama-swill and multi-cultural twaddle? Don't you people ever look in mirrors or wonder what you all have done to the notion of "journalism"?

You moros voted for this community organizer of no accomplishment. You put into office the idiot congress of Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Dodd, Frank, Kerry, Rangel, Conyers, etc...

For once, either live with your actions or hold them accountable.

The next thing you know, you will be calling the Waxman atrocity "historic legislation.:" oh, wait...

What a putzes you and your brethren truly are.

Iran: Breezy with freedom!

That will be your classic line for a long, long time Joe.

Per Joe Klein...

IRAN IS BREEZY WITH FREEDOM!

What a putz and liberal tool.

Goldfarb once wrote that the founding fathers “sought an energetic executive with near dictatorial power in pursuing foreign policy and war. So no, the Constitution does not put Congress on an equal footing with the executive in matters of national security." Therefore, the Long War Against Terror legitimizes an omnipotent president. Goldfarb was a staff-member of The Project for a New American Century and Deputy Communications Director to the 2008 McCain campaign.

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Great article Joe!
You are the greatest writer of this, or any, generation!
You are a saint...Saint Joe!
Your are one of the finest writers alive today!
Great post Joe! It got me thinking.
TIME is lucky to have you Joe!

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The above is sarcasm mixed with irony. Joe Klein is a fool and the Walter Duranty of the age.

neo: uh, yeah. Well, we're just going to disagree on this one, then.

shaldi: read the line in context. Quit being a tool.

I think this is an excellent time to get some movement.
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Why not talk to them? They are one of the players in this overblown problem(*1).
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This business of collective punishment, the stealing of land by Israeli "settlers" and roadblocks has to end.
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And, of course, Israel's security does have to be addressed, but not in a manner which leaves the Israelis as the sole definers of this variable.
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I have always thought that Northern Ireland is a good example of how to proceed, as there are religious aspects to it too, as well as terrorism.
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Right now, it is important to isolate Israel's policies as perceived by the current government, which is run by bigots and other politicians who think the only solution is more of the same old "deterrence" policies that have already failed(*2).
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(*1)I'm explicitly chastising those who complain it's "too complicated" or "ignores Israel's security" or any of myriad excuses for not actually making peace.
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(*2)I'm referring to the Hizb Allah - Israel war and the recently concluded war in Gaza. Keep in mind that "total war" is not the answer.

I agree, btw with shaldi's sarcasm, minus the sarcasm.
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Great article, Joe. You're a bulwark against the no-brain, kneejerk neocons who know pretty close to nothing about this planet!

And, of course, Israel's security does have to be addressed, but not in a manner which leaves the Israelis as the sole definers of this variable.
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What are you proposing: UN intervention?

Folks,
You really need to study what the term neo-con means and when it originated. Moynihan and Kirkpatrick would be very disappointed with your grasp of the term and your use of it as some sort of insult.

For 8 years, I had to listen to slanderous lies about my country, its leaders and its military. From the likes of TIME and sitting US congressmen, I had to stomach their nonsense.

Now, the shoe is on the other foot. This effete Marxist who is now our chief executive is a liar and a fool. And when he is not lying or being foolish, he is imitating the policies of his predecessor.

I have recently waited, and waited, for our president to make some kind of statement in support of people dying for liberty. None was forthcoming. Now I read of an "Obama effect" tied to his ridiculous Cairo speech. Yet, this man does not even possess the fortitude to issue statements in support of the protesters and, in fact, has tied his strategy to negotiating with their murderers. What in the hell kind of an "effect" is that?

I am betting that very few readers of Joe Klein or TIME have served in the military or been anywhere outside their Northeast and West coast comfort zones. I may be wrong in this assumption, but I doubt it.

You people continue to live with the dream that thugs and tyrants can be negotiated with and talked out of their plans of conquest. I read here of the Israeli "genocide" and the willingness of Palestinians to live in peace. Joe Klein writes of breezy Iranian freedom because they have the internet and satellite TV, mere days before Neda is gunned down. And I ask myself what world you people live in? Your heroes are singers and dancers and actors and writers and politicians. And I feel very sorry for you all.

With all due respect, you people are post-modern fools.

If standing for liberty and free-markets makes one a neo-con, please count me as one.

More wars are coming people, get used to it. You can talk all you want and I will salute your efforts and will support them up to a point. But our enemies are laughing at you.

Politics, like many things (climate and economics to name two), is cyclical. You folks had best wake up; Iraq is a success of legendary and historic importance, no matter what Joe Klein said years ago. Iran is not "breezy" with freedom, no matter what Joe Klein writes now. And it will take, at some point, some force and some violence (oh, the horror!) from some quarter to change that. Coninue to read the Kleins and the Greenwalds of the world if you must and continue to think you are well-read, informed and prime examples of "enlightened" men.

For once in your enlightened effete lives, be men of valor and come back carrying your shield or on it.

"What are you proposing: UN intervention?"
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Nope. If it's called for, fine. But Israel has clear shown it's not interested in peace and need to be forced to accept some impositions placed on it from outside.
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Isolating them diplomatically is a start.

shaldi:
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You're nothing but a racist trying to hide you bigotry in some sort of "pseudo-honor".
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You don't know the first damn thing about how a country is run. You had your shot and you f'd it up.
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Get over it.

shaldi:
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This effete Marxist who is now our chief executive is a liar and a fool.
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He's neither effete, nor a Marxist, nor a fool.

It might be interesting to observe N-R engage Shaldi...

SZ
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I'll take such a pithy retort to Shaldi as a compliment given the great length of our own debate.

Shaldi
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Where to begin. I suppose an appropriate beginning point would be to disclose to you that I am a conservative Republican from NY often derided at Swampland as a neo-con. With that said, though, I find your diatribe to be baseless and out of touch, if not completely callous.
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For 8 years, I had to listen to slanderous lies about my country, its leaders and its military. From whom? In what context? Criticism is not synonymous with slander. President Bush, while not wholly ineffective, was frankly a mockery to politicians, which is saying quite alot given the propensity for politicians to make a mockery of themselves and their offices. His unintelligible rants disguised any potentially well-thought strategy, and thus his criticism is well deserved.
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This effete Marxist who is now our chief executive is a liar and a fool. And when he is not lying or being foolish, he is imitating the policies of his predecessor. A rarely applied socialistic leaning is far from Marxism. President Obama is many things, however, naive is the worst I can ascertain.
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Yet, this man does not even possess the fortitude to issue statements in support of the protesters and, in fact, has tied his strategy to negotiating with their murderers. He has actually issued his support for the protesters. A move which in my opinion is a reckless endorsement of violent turmoil which will decrease our capacity to actually engage with Iran. By engage, I mean diplomatically not militarily as you would likely support. Diplomacy is always the best option, war should always be the last. There is no need for military action against Iran based on mere rhetoric.
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I read here of the Israeli "genocide" and the willingness of Palestinians to live in peace...And I ask myself what world you people live in? Its called reality, you should join us sometime. Although, genocide is a bit strong, perhaps. Maybe genocidally inclined would be more fitting. Since its inception, Israel has made perfectly clear that international norms do not apply to Israel, that Jewish blood is the only blood that matters, that it had no intention of adhering to the 1947 Partition borders, and that the Arabs are inferior people. It has since expanded through military conquest into the Golan Heights, the Sheba'a Farms, the Sinai Peninsula, and Gaza and West Bank. Regardless of who fired the first shots in these wars, the acquisition of territory through war is forbidden per international law. Israel has transplanted half a million civilians into settlements in sovereign Palestinian territory in direct violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. Israel engages in immoral disproportionate use of force and utter reckless regard for civilian lives as evident through the 2006 offensive against Hezbollah and the 2008-2009 offensive against Hamas in Gaza. Those Palestinians who reject peace have good cause as Israel has rejected peace from the beginning. There are those, however, who have and continue to desire peace with Israel, yet Israel continues to link peace with unrealistic and detrimental preconditions on the Palestinians. Ones that can never be met if Palestine is to be a self-governing state.
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I will leave with this:
"After we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine"
-Ben Gurion, 1937, first PM of Israel
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"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
Ariel Sharon, 1998
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