A Meeting in Damascus

"Candor"
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Indeed. That has been the strength of Obama's messages. Here it has been particularly scarce. If Obama can call out the lies and the evasions, especially those in which the US has been complicit, there is real hope.

The speech made an impact with the audience; and it is a start because previous Presidents did not engage outside officialdom. I believe that we have shut out many articulate Muslim Americans here. Since the election the number of Blacks on tv and the MSM has grown exponentially. Perhaps these outlets can try to get Muslims to contribute to the talking heads segments outside the few academics currently in use.

It seems the Arabs Jews and Persians are inflicted with leaders who are entrenched in the views: Khaled Meshal, Avigdor Lieberman and Old Ahmedinejad. Can we get them re-located in Guantanamo when it is empty?

"But what now?"
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If the 1990's were any indication of how the Israeli / Palestinian peace process works, it would go something like this:
1) Initial progress this summer towards a leaders' summit,
2) Both sides get nervous as the big day approaches later this year,
3) Something big happens. Either:
a) A Palestinian missile launch / suicide bombing takes place, or
b) an Israeli no-confidence vote on the Prime Minister fails,
resulting in a call for new elections,
4) If a then b, or if b then a, either way, 9 months are lost,
5) lather, rinse, repeat.
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I do hope it is different this time.

Wow! This thread is almost 30 minutes old, and rusty hasn't been by yet to show why it proves, once again, that 95% of the world are libtard LOONS.
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Pretend your work here has been accomplished and go change your waterproof mattress cover.

Obviously we've reached a point where cynicism based on the recalcitrance, lies and deceptions of the past has rendered political rhetoric relatively useless. Serious question: what would happen if Obama made the continuation of all or some of the $ billions in US military aid to Israel contingent upon a hard freeze of settlement building?

Meshal's rhetoric needs to be called out for what it is; the pull of the dead-end lure of the extremists to rationalize their entitlement policy to violence.
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President Obama highlighted the need for honest and public self-reflection, followed by leaders providing real leadership towards a peaceful resolution to the Arab Israeli conflict. If all the leader of HAMAS can do is parrot stale maxims while ignoring the part that his group's violence has played in the harm to the Palestinian community, then they deserve not just to be shut out, but shot down. HAMAS as it stands now, has NO LEGITIMATE ROLE TO PLAY in ending this conflict, it can only perpetuate it.
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If HAMAS is content with villa's in Damascus and a Gaza Strip that is choked off from any hope of a peaceful future for the Palestinians, then hey, by all means, continue to advocate the role of 'legitimate armed resistance' on Israeli and Jewish civilians. But for peace to happen means they of all people, need to get on the bus and realize that the only way forward is through peaceful actions. Violence, means a dead end, both figuratively and literally. Something that the holder of the chair once held by Sheik Yassin and Dr. Rantisi should well know.
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The rest of the world has little interest in perpetuating the visions of suicide-bomber shaheeds who can only realize a future of jihad.

President Obama has set the tone for future diplomatic relations. We are witnessing the maturing of the Obama Doctrine. ..............

http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/06/04/the-seven-points-of-obamas-cairo-speech/

You cannot negotiate with terrorists. That is a simple fact. Fools will flock to the foolheartedly. Such are the rants of the far left liberal extremists not only on this site who back Obama's folly to the middle east, but also the Code Pinkos who rally around the terrorist Hamas in Palestine.

bitterpill8: Please provide support for your propositions in the first paragraph. Are these based on verifiable date or just your personal impression and belief?

I've always thought it was completely futile to demand that Hamas recognize Israel's "right to exist". Many nations are wiped away with pens or armies for reasons far more ambiguous than those of 1948. You could reach the same end by asking them to acknowledge that Israel does exist and will always continue to exist.

FT: Do you get the feeling somebody is terrified that peace may break out? The horror, the horror. It's the end of the world as they know it and we feel fine. I thought I's paraphrase a gay singer just for the salt in the wound effect.

That should have been "thought I'd". I came down with whatever is going around last night, so I'll use that lame excuse.

rusty: "you can't negotiate with terrorist" Sure but can you negotiate with the people that support them? How about the people that create them? Can you negotiate with the powers that make life so difficult as to encourage terrorism? The guy with the bomb on the plane you can't negotiate with, you need to take that guy out. But your argument is stupid if you apply it to everyone who is willing to fight to stop you. The word terrorism has lost almost all value when you apply it as broadly as you seem to.

"You cannot negotiate with terrorists."
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And you think that's Obama's strategy why? You're correct that you probably cannot negotiate with, say, Al Qaeda. (and, much to the dismay of many on the left, Obama continues to try to blow them up with drone strikes in Af/Pak, strikes that often kill innocent bystanders as well) I know, you'll claim that Iran and Syria, etc, are terrorist nations. But they are nation states, members of the United Nations, with functioning governments, however bad they might be. You can ignore them, invade them/blow them up, or try to negotiate with them using a combination of carrots and sticks. Those are the choices. Are you for the first or second?
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What Obama is attempting to do - what we should always try to do with less than desirable ruling regimes - is to talk over the heads of the powers that be and directly to the people. Get around the government/terrorist propaganda. That was the goal of this speech. It also put folks like Ahmadinejad and others on notice that he will continue to use his current popularity and bully pulpit to go around them and deliver messages directly to the people. (just like he does domestically with the GOP)
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It's true that George Bush also tried to do this. But Obama is a more effective messenger, not just because he's a better orator but because Bush tried to do this after, for example, initiating an invasion and occupation of choice in a Muslim country, torturing detainees, and sending John Bolton to the UN to have temper tantrums. But as others have noted, including Obama, words will only get you so far. All sides will be looking to see what concrete actions he takes in the next 4-8 years, actions which will define his legacy on the foreign policy front more than this or any speech.

Rusty, a reminder from Romans 12:
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18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live apeaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, aavenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine aenemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but aovercome evil with good.
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So Rusty, who's right? You or god? Or do you only believe in the Bible when it suits you?

"You cannot negotiate with terrorists. That is a simple fact."
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Rusty that's a nice ideal. It really is. However, in reality, in real world situations that have actually happen, will happen in the future and are happening now, its all fantasy, a slogan and ultimately a bright and shinning lie we keep telling ourselves after being reassured by our authority figures that this must be true.
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But its just as much pure bullsh*t as the lie we cannot neogtiate with kidnappers or highjackers when in fact we, our government and American owned companies operating overseas do it all the friggin time. Maybe it comforts you some what to believe that your heros would never ever do this, but trust me they do and did and will and will lie to you about it if necessary.

Again Rusty invokes his magical incantation. In the real world, people negotiate with terrorists all the time. It's usually a bad idea because it tends to reward evil actions but there isn't any magical quality about certain people that makes them less trustworthy than others. As was pointed out in Joe's article. No one in the conflict is above killing civilians if it suits their purpose.
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What I found most tragic is this quote here:
"Palestinian actions are reactions. What Palestinians do is to resist the occupation," he said. "It is self-defense
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Of course it is. Anybody who kills anybody will justify it if you ask them. Just like prisons are chock full of the wrongly accused.
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Of course the entire logic of warfare is based on a notion of collective guilt and is therefore, by definition immoral, that realization isn't going to carry us very far toward peace unless the poeple who benefit from escalating conflict, no longer do so.

Does anyone see the parallels between the frustrations of Israel and those of Hamas? Israel insists on being allowed to colonize territory in the ways of the old colonial powers but which violate current international law and norms. Hamas insists on being allowed to use the terror tactics that Israel herself used to establish the state but which violate current international law and norms.

I have been reading the comments on Obama's speech from around the middle east. What I find striking is the Israeli hard right is not happy and the Hamas folks aren't happy. Both claiming he said polar opposite things. I have always been of a mind that when the extremes are not pleased you have probably struck the right balance.

Iran has already shown a willingness to negotiate and work toward peace. They have offered "full transparency for security that there are no Iranian endeavors to develop or possess WMD, full cooperation with IEAE based on Iranian adoption of all relavant instruments (93 + 2 and all further IEAE protocals)", "decisive action against any terrorists (above all al Qaeda) on Iranian territory, full cooperation and exchange of all relavant information", to support "political stabilization and the establishment of democratic institutions and a non-religious government (in Iraq)", to influence Hamas and Hizbollah to "stop violent actions against civilians" and "acceptance of Arab League Beirut declaration (Saudi initiative, two-states solution)".
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It won't be easy and there are plenty of potential minefields, but direct talks and negotiations are, IMO, worth pursuing.
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(pdf link from this article.)

I am seeing parallels with all the players in a peace settlement falling into place the same way they have with health insurance.
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The financial collapse contributed to the health insurance change maybe it has with a possible peace with Israel and Palestine.

Jake2008:

I viewed 3 Cairo students responses on BBC, 2 on CBC Newsworld, and the interviews on CNN plus the usual talking heads on CNN and MSNBC. CNN interviewed a Human Rights activist in Cairo who is also a student at the university and several others. I don't watch Fox so my impressions are on the "left" side, I guess. The overall tenor: that it was good to hear the president speak out and a note that some of the contents were directed towards their own leaders. BBC World has a discussion going in the Have Your say section.

On Blacks appearing on Cable and networks : do the arithmetic pre-2007 and since Obama won the nominations. I had not seen so many Black commentators as distinct from candidates before the Obama nomination.

Arab/Muslims on our cable and network tv: I can't name one outside the journalists e.g. Melhem, Raghida and several academics. I have not seen any serious round table with Arab/Muslim students at a roundtable or some other program format. These are fairly frequent on BBC - with some mixed Jewish - Palestinian student panels. Ehud Barak has featured in quite a few. I haven't seen Ibrahim of the Arab-American group in ages.

If anyone has any more information or directions to places where I can find examples let me know. The one gap: maybe there are Muslims who appear on local tv.

ogliberal Says:
Thursday, June 4, 2009 at 1:41 pm
"But Obama is a more effective messenger, not just because he's a better orator but because Bush tried to do this after, for example, initiating an invasion and occupation of choice in a Muslim country, torturing detainees, and sending John Bolton to the UN to have temper tantrums."
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You are naive as people were naive in 1976 when Carter began all of this foreign policy mumbo jumbo. Obama is just in a series of former politicians, now called statesmen for making big speeches which are totally ignored by the various players in action. What have we seen since? 9/11 attacks, car bombs and now the first soldier on our own soil who was killed by an al-Qaeda turned domestic terrorist. Keep digging, the hole just gets deeper and wider. Obama is a big blow-hard rhetorical lunatic. He has his words, most he cannot even say unless they are flashed up on a tele-prompter. Speeches will not tear down the Islamic extremists and no amount of rhetorical prose will stop their terror.
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Your statement that "Bush tried after Iraq" is a total lie. Bush and Co did everything so far as diplomacy and none of it worked. Sanctions didn't work, nothing did until we attacked. These people know only one thing and that is armed forces to shut them down. Once you eradicate the viral infection, then and only then will you see the "new world order" that any sane individual will appreciate. I use Iraq today as the example. Now that the dictator and tyrant of 30 years is gone, the people of Iraq finally have some sense of civilization.

Bitterpill8: I tend to agree with your impressions at least as to Muslims...I wish someone would do an academic study on this.

Once you eradicate the viral infection, then and only then will you see the "new world order" that any sane individual will appreciate.
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You know, Rusty ol' bean, YOU (and others like you) worry me more than the "terrists" do.