Obama's Mistake: Britain Did Torture
Last night, Barack Obama said he had recently read an article about Winston Churchill during the London blitz. "Churchill said, 'We don't torture,' when the entire British -- all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat," Obama said. "And then the reason was that Churchill understood, you start taking short-cuts, over time, that corrodes what's -- what's best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country."
It was, perhaps, the most powerful anecdote of the night, and an apparently powerful moral condemnation of President Bush, an admitted admirer of Churchill who kept the British leader's bust in the Oval Office. But it was not entirely true. Churchill may well have said that Britain did not torture, but British archives show clearly that captured Nazis were subjected to harsh treatment in order to extract information during World War II. This morning, Michael Tomasky points to this 2005 story in the Guardian about a secret World War II detention center called the "London Cage":
The London Cage was used partly as a torture centre, inside which large numbers of German officers and soldiers were subjected to systematic ill-treatment. In total 3,573 men passed through the Cage, and more than 1,000 were persuaded to give statements about war crimes. The brutality did not end with the war, moreover: a number of German civilians joined the servicemen who were interrogated there up to 1948. . . .
Within the National Archives are documents from two official inquiries into the methods employed at the Cage, one which heard evidence that guards were under orders to knock on some prisoners' cell doors every 15 minutes, depriving them of sleep, and another which concluded with "the possibility that violence was used" during interrogations.
There is also a long and detailed letter of complaint from one SS captain, Fritz Knoechlein, who describes his treatment after being taken to the Cage in October 1946. Knoechlein alleges that because he was "unable to make the desired confession" he was stripped, given only a pair of pyjama trousers, deprived of sleep for four days and nights, and starved.
The guards kicked him each time he passed, he alleges, while his interrogators boasted that they were "much better" than the "Gestapo in Alexanderplatz". After being forced to perform rigorous exercises until he collapsed, he says he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. On complaining to Scotland that he was being kicked even "by ordinary soldiers without a rank", Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten with a cudgel. Later, he says, he was forced to stand beside a large gas stove with all its rings lit before being confined in a shower which sprayed extremely cold water from the sides as well as from above. Finally, the SS man says, he and another prisoner were taken into the gardens behind the mansions, where they were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs.
Amazing how the methods--sleep deprivation, starvation, hot/cold, stress positions--always remain the same. Be sure to read the entire story here.
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1
Scherer
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Wingnuts will undoubtedly claim that Britain just got "rough" with the Nazis. Oh wait they will probably acknowlede that its torture so they can use it against Obama and also use it to justify what we did. What was I thinking...
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I would correct you on one thing though, I don't believe President Obama has ever singled out any of the harsh treatments as torture other than waterboarding so we don't actually know if he thinks the other techniques qualified as torture. -
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MS: Thanks for bringing this up. The issue is worth keeping in the news. Torture is torture. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. I fully understand the desire to exact revenge by using torture, but we have laws against it to keep us from practicing it. It's a heinous crime. There is no justification, either legally or morally.
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The story President Obama was possibly referring to:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/churchill-vs-cheney.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article729216.ece
So one source says they didn't and one source say they did. Sound familiar?
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Off-topic/request for new post:
Chrysler declares bankruptcy.
S&P up 1.5% this morning.
WTF? -
5
This just helps highlight something we know. The temptation to use torture and to justify it is very high. Otherwise we would have no need for the Geneva Conventions, The Red Cross, Amnesty International or The US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chaspter 113C.
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It's only because the temptation is so great and the ability to judge our own actions dispassionately is so small, that these institutions are put in place so that our higher selves can prevail. -
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Chrysler declares bankruptcy.
S&P up 1.5% this morning.
WTF?
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Joe,
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Any correlation between "what's good for the country as a whole" and "what's good for Wall Street" disappeared a long time ago.
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Downsizing of any sort has recently always seemed to bump up the stock indices.
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In a sane world, the two would track each other. Unfortunately, we aren't at that point right now . . . -
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Was this British unit using torture under the orders of the government? If we dont know that answer, isnt that a good reason to push now to found out how involved the American govt was involved in torture? Or are you guys still stuck on whether it was torture and /or whether it was good or evil or neither to do such acts? Maybe your country is just hoping this current torture story will fade away, until 50 years from now a story comes out about torture that nobody reads. If you do that however, the United States will truly be just another country, with no claims to higher moral ground.
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Our dear leader sure does get lots of historical notes wrong on regular basis. Do you suppose it is to sound more "Presidential" when he gives his great speeches, or is it an attempt to justify his positions?
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I am thinking the latter.
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For someone that people even on this site pronounce him to be "such a breath of fresh air to be so intellectual", he sure does screw up on the historical facts on a frequent basis.
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54 States quote anyone? "I've been to all 54 States in the United States", I believe was what he said.
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I just don't get it. Hypocrisy runs wild these days. -
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Some low-level fact checker is bound to get fired...
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So did Churchill (a) lie and (b) use his government's lawyers to twist existing legal standards to justify this activity? Did Churchill specifically authorize the actions claimed by the SS guy to have been applied? Is there documentation confirming the German's claim? If not, this is Sesame Street stuff – "One of these things is not like the other…" – and what Obama said wasn't even arguably wrong.
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A reminder from Reporting 101: If your mother says she loves you, CHECK IT OUT!
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And montrealdude, mercí – d'accord. -
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MS:
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I noted two severe flaws in your reporting here.
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1. Winston Churchill left office on July 27, 1945
2. The events you speak of were under his successor, in 1948
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That is all. -
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Be sure to catch Terry Gross' interview with Philippe Sands from yesterday's Fresh Air. He lays out the case for why investigating possible war crimes is not optional, under our current legal framework, despite the nonsense being written by Klein, JNS, and others.
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53_3
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Did Scherer just PWN himself? Ruh Roh. -
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I don't even need to correct myself, MS, even though I misread and some were talking of 1946. One other thing:
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Is it the job of our president to get everything correct about the history of Great Britain?
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I think, MS, your article is a bit disengenuous and a bit of a stretch besides. -
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Wingnuts are so predictable.
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I tink so, sg. Big time...
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afguy, thanks for the reminder -- that helps me form a coherent world view.
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I think that MS wrote before he thought.
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After all, he has to hand out some popsicles to his peers... -
19
If Churchill said Great Britain didnt torture, one would think that you could say that was true. Then again, Bush said the same thing so....
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Except for the fact that Churchill left office before any of the events MS describes took place!
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Granted, montrealdude, they could have done it without his knowledge, but it is just as likely that he either didn't know or they weren't torturing under his admin.
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This one's one I think MS needs to pull... -
21
From the article: Between July 1940 and September 1948, however, these three magnificent houses were home to one of the country's most secret military establishments [...] known colloquially as the London Cage.
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Also: It is clear, however, by late 1946 there was "disquiet about [Scotland's] methods" being expressed at the headquarters of the British army, which implies the practices had been going on for longer. -
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Whether Churchill knew about it:
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It is impossible to discern, from the War Office archives, whether Scotland was regarded by this time as a maverick whose methods were to be quietly overlooked, or whether he was acting with clear, official approval. -
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53_3 - it is clear from the story that similar violations occurred during the war. It's not clear that they were officially sanctioned, however, so the parallel to the last eight years is incomplete.
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However, I find it refreshing that a mainstream reporter is willing to call sleep deprivation and stress positions "torture." That's progress. -
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I'm just going by the wiki page about this Scotland officer, and it seems he was in charge of this Cage during the war. Granted its wiki, so for all i know Colbert posted that info based on something he heard from some guy.
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Art:
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You may have a point, but I think this makes it more disengenuous for MS to point out an 'error' on Obama's part. How is it that a US president is supposed to know that there is "implicit" information that what Churchill said wasn't true?
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There could have been, of course, but there may not have been, also. Is it possible also that Churchill didn't know?
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Late 1946 is a full year after Churchill left office.
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