The CIA's Bad Science

The conditions of a controlled experiment have almost nothing in common with the conditions of a coercive interrogation, and it is "nonsense" to use one to justify the other.
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This point also applies to techniques that the US military uses on its own soldiers to train them to resist torture.
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Good catch, Michael, thanks for the post.

"So no big deal, right? Is there a jury anywhere in the world who would buy this argument?"

Unfortunately, not only did they Dept of Justice under Bush go out of the way to pull together elements that may justify their legal position like this study; they also took every step to use executive privilege to cover their a$$es. A sad day for America when criminals of the highest order can escape prosecution.

Michael, I was worried a few days ago in another post when you chose to focus on the "caterpillar in the box" torture above others, because I knew it would be raised by the Right (over and over again) to attempt to show the ongoing torture by the U.S. was just silly "fraternity hazing." And I was correct. But I am pleased with this post... seems you have begun to see the tortures committed for what they were. Thanks!

Moreover, whereas physical pain may not be particularly apparent even at this stage, the mental pain would be all too evident, and arguably worse than physical pain
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It obvious that the only consideration as to whether something was to be considered torture was whether it left any marks or permanent injury. Every tactic applied was designed specifically to cause the maximum amount of suffering with the minimum amount of visible damage.
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I don't know about you but that strikes me as downright twisted.

Very informative post, Michael. You're on a roll lately with improved quality, IMHO.
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I did read the trackback and found this additional comment by Dr. Horne of particular relevance:
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"Even if one was to be pragmatic and claim that this form of sleep deprivation produced ‘desired results', I would doubt whether the state of mind would be able to produce credible information, unaffected by delusion, fantasy or suggestibility."
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Sort of blows up the foundation of their screwed-up logic, I'd say.

"One of the most striking things about the interrogation memos released last week is the way that the Justice Department purported to use academic science to excuse procedures that would clearly cause significant pain for detainees."
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Michael-the most striking things to me is that no one will be held accountable for torture by this administration or a future one. That this administration and the previous one to it, have both violated international law. That no one will be prosecuted (note: I'm not saying convicted)for violation of both U.S. and international law is a sad day for our country. Mean while we will have lost all moral authority to lecture anyone on human rights violations.

Moreover, whereas physical pain may not be particularly apparent even at this stage, the mental pain would be all too evident, and arguably worse than physical pain.
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It's clear that the memo carefully confined torture to mean only something that caused visible and permanent injury.
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The whole interrogation regime was carefully designed to cause the maximum amount of suffering with the minimum amount of bruising.
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Sorry for the reposting. My comment apparently spent a few minutes passing through the NSA on its way to the display!

Did you see the response by political activists Charles Gibson, Jan Crawford Greenberg and George Stephanopoulos at ABC to Obama's gift to the terrorists (i.e., the release of the interrogation memos)? Said political activists at ABC actually alleged that it was "torture" merely to threaten to place a harmless insect near the committed, unrepentant, al Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah. Even Johah Golberg could not construct a better, more accurate parody of the political activists from the political advocacy groups of the self-described "mainstream" media.

I see textee is volunteering to spend 11 days shackled to a wall.
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Very nice of him to offer up his vacation time in the name of science.

That no one will be prosecuted (note: I'm not saying convicted)for violation of both U.S. and international law is a sad day for our country. Mean while we will have lost all moral authority to lecture anyone on human rights violations.
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Let's not get too melodramatic gysgt. This is the same nation that specifically developed and executed strategic bombing campaigns during WWII, including the use of nuclear weapons on civilian populations, which are, by our own definitions during the Nuremberg Trials, war crimes and crimes against humanity. No American generals were ever prosecuted for any of that.
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If we ever had any moral authority to lecture anyone about anything, we still have it.

It is so nice to see the liberals all covort amongst each other condemning our CIA and Military men and women for defense of our Nation.
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I for one can't wait to see all of the advances Obama and his merry band of men and women use to prevent another attach on the US of A. When the attack does happen because we believe now that interrogation should be done with a wet noodle, that it isn't some poor innocent boy or girl that is killed because the liberal loons believe that the terrorists who are hell bent on the total destruciton and annhilation of the United States, should be kept from sleeping for a few hours.
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Maybe, just maybe God will intervene and only the offspring of the vile far left liberal extremists will be killed in the next Al Qaeda attack on our soil.

It doesn't matter as war criminals are above the law, unless they are not American.

So, testy-rusty refuse to engage in good faith discussion, communicating only in fact-free hyperbole, with eliminationist fantasies thrown in for good measure.
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Can't you just see them, in adjacent men's room stalls, belting out, "I'm Every Republican"?

I just hope that one day, when Rusty and textee and Spob and all the rest grow up, they come to realize that wishing death and pain and suffering upon those with different opinions than themselves makes them more akin to the monsters they claim to be against than real human beings. So much hate and fear cannot be good for the body, mind, or the soul.
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Kinda sad, really. =/

hell bent on the total destruciton and annhilation of the United States
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You should write comic books Rusty. You've certainly got the turn of phrase down.

Why on its home page does Time magazine have a picture of Keith Olbermann above its predictably false headline "How Waterboarding Got Out of Control"? Is it "torture" to merely to threaten to place a harmless insect near Olbermann too?

I expect that there was a lot of dissent within the CIA on this and that the real twisting of the science occurred at the OVP and the OLC, both places where truth went to die.
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Good piece, Michael.

Hey Michael-- change her name to "hilzoy" in this post, willya please?

If nothing else, this demonstrates that it was the right call to release the memos. Not likely we'd otherwise get authoritative public repudiation of their underlying assumptions.

Thank you for this, Scherer.

It's true that Hilary Bok is much better known as hilzoy. She is not THE author of Obsidian Wings, but one of several bloggers who post there. She also blogs for the Washington Monthly.

[...] Time's Michael Scherer is more uncomfortable with the findings in the torture memos. He writes, “One of the most striking things about the interrogation memos released last week is the way that the Justice Department purported to use academic science to excuse procedures that would clearly cause significant pain for detainees. In one memo, Steven Bradbury, a deputy assistant attorney general, credulously cites CIA medical experts who argued that ‘even very extended sleep deprivation does not cause physical pain.'… Even under the most controlled settings, without the obvious element of fear, it must be said, the CIA/Justice Department argument is difficult to handle on its face. I wonder if there was any person in the Bush Administration or at the CIA who would have entertained the possibility of voluntarily undergoing shackled sleep deprivation (via uncomfortable standing, sitting or reclining positions) for as long as 7.5 days on a liquid diet of about 1,000 calories per day. By their own sober reasoning, such a course of treatment is not expected to cause ‘physical pain' or ‘severe mental pain or suffering.' So no big deal, right? Is there a jury anywhere in the world who would buy this argument?” [...]

[...] but techniques that are known to cause pain and the feeling that one is dying. In fact, one article [...]