The Abortion Non-Issue

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I find it oddly ironic that you would devote a post to the unimportance of a particular issue when it's clear from your history that you consider the issue vitally important.
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The reason the Catholic League, Randall Terry or the Cardinal Newman Society fire off press releases is because they know they can count on you to read them.
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I intend no unkindness, but I do find the whole process unsettling.

"It just means they're good at firing off press releases, and that journalists are overly fond of the "Catholics versus Democrats" storyline."
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You know of what you speak.

Hopefully we can turn this economy around and actually focus on solving the deeper, systemic issues for why we're in this situation. Obviously bad banking's a good place to start, but there are other issues, like global poverty, that have huge economic and geopolitical ramifications.

The Borgen Project (www.borgenproject.org) has some interesting insight into addressing the issues of global poverty, something we can remedy easily and sustainably.

Some interesting figures to ponder:
$30 billion USD: The annual shortfall to end global poverty.
$550 billion USD: The annual US defense budget.

The title of the post "the abortion non-issue" is misleading because it makes it seem like abortion is a non-issue, and I think most people know that's not true.

AS – That's merely a subset of "journalists'" fascination with any X-versus-Y storyline, to the exclusion of the merits of any such conflict.

Has anyone noticed that the President and his Administration are not pro-life Republicans?
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Once viewed in this context, the Abortion non-issue also becomes a non-story.

Wow. First Michael Scherer posts like 5 terrific stories in a row, then Amy Sullivan points out that "journalists are overly fond" of the "Democrats have a fight or flight response to religion" storyline.
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I guess Rusty was right after all. These really are the End Times.

"...she signed a Kansas bill that gives women the option of viewing a sonogram before having an abortion."
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The hell does that mean? Before the bill was signed women were forbidden from viewing a sonogram?
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Oh, silly me. I asked Sullivan a question.

Interesting Topic. I think it goes deeper than Catholics vs Democrats. Do the Jews think the horror of the holocaust is a non-issue after 6 million Jews were slaughtered by Hitler? Does the world think the Rwandan genocide is other non-issue? How is it that our society has allowed our own consciences to be so cold to the convenience of Abortion....now that we have eliminated over 1/6th of America's population,50 MILLION AND COUNTING ..A WHOLE GENERATION....How is that a non-issue.
We've educated our way into ignorance and given excuses for that which is INEXCUSABLE. I PRAY GOD HAS MERCY ON THIS NATION, BECAUSE WE DESERVE SEVERE JUDGEMENT.

les-- Please be advised that God isn't real.

Elvis- Please be advised this is April 3rd, if you wanted to get in on National Atheist Day you missed it by 2 days...that was on April 1st..April Fools day...The Fool has said in his heart there is no GOD.

Elvis, rounding up families from their homes and stuffing them all in gas chambers is not that same thing as someone choosing not to carry a kid inside them for 9 months. Life or not – the murder of innocent people already EXISTING OUTSIDE in the world cannot be equated with a fetus dependant upon its host to survive. Chopping up your neighbors with a machete isn't that same thing as some woman not wanting a baby – again, life or no life. It likes, you pro-life psychos want everyone to just jump at the word “life” – and yet, for some reason the people already living isn't as important to you. The power of life in the stage of fertilization and pregnancy is completely in the individual woman's hands – blame God for giving her that power.

Sorry Elvis, I meant Les

les – let me recommend http://www.godhatesamerica.com as the best resource to help you refine your extremism.

lebinz- The best part of your above post is this: "blame God for giving her that power."
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If I've read my Bible correctly, "God" intended for a woman's pain in childbirth to serve as punishment for taking that pesky apple, which he wanted her to take in the first place. Now women have figured out ways to say "wait a minute, God, I don't think so," and "God" is all mad about it . . . and the Republican response is to make the practice illegal. Doesn't this seem a bit silly to anyone?

lebinz,

The "logic" of life being defined by independence from a "host" doesn't hold much weight when you actually apply honest logic to considering that proposition.

If you leave a small child outside it will die. It's dependent on its former "host" as you put it to protect it and provide food, warmth and love. I doubt you would have a problem with considering neglecting a child to death much different from murder? How about an elderly senile individual?

But somehow because it feeds by an umbilical cord versus a bottle and is unseen, somehow that makes it much less than life in your view?

If an angry boyfriend attacks a pregnant woman and intentionally kills her unborn fetus is it murder or just assault?

If (in a moment of possible clarity -- when you're not smoking the weed) you think it's murder, what if she had scheduled an abortion prior to the attack, does that make it just assault?

Clearly none of this makes any sense, because assuming that a fetus is not a "life" requires logical and philosophical nonsense.

Just call it MURDER and get on with it. Yes, we live in a country where MURDER is legal in certain circumstances.

There's a huge difference between a collection of cells with no brain activity (or even no brain at all!) and a child with active mind, brain and circulatory system.
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Attacking a pregnant woman depends on how far along the pregnancy is. At a certain point, yes, it does become murder of some degree, but before then, while tragic for the woman involved, it's not.
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By your logic, would it be murder if a woman miscarried? What if it was preventable, brought on by diet or ignorance?

sniperct,

Regarding brain activity and cells versus organism arguments there is plenty of reputable medical data available for anyone curious about the distinction between the various stages of gestation: fertilization versus embryos versus fetuses, etc. I'll let you make your own assessment of that. But clearly life does begin long before a fetus becomes an infant at birth.

As for miscarriage, preventable or otherwise, I don't really see your point since there are pretty clear logical distinctions to be made between natural death, accidental death (heart attacks, auto accidents, medical errors, etc.) and intentional killing (murder, suicide, genocide, etc.). Namely that the later are premeditated, willful and with intent to harm.

It just blows my mind that we are more concerned with protecting some species of fish from being eaten then we are with protecting our own offspring from being senselessly exterminated.

bonepress:
Have you seriously considered the consequences of making abortion illegal? Many abortions would be carried out regardless, illegally. Would that be preferable? Many other abortions would NOT be carried out; some of those abortions that are not carried out would result in the easily and knowably preventable death of the mother. Others would result in babies that are severely handicapped, placed in the care of a mother that clearly either does not have the means or the motivation to care for them. All or almost all of them would be unwanted babies in any case. Does America or the world really need more unwanted children in the care of people that do not have the means, maturity, or desire to look after them? Does that really paint a picture of a better America?
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Abortion may seem horrible, but in almost cases it's the lesser of two evils. In the adult world, sometimes we have to live with that.
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In conclusion, it just blows MY mind that many anti-abortion pro-life nuts were all for the Iraq war. Are they against senseless killing or not? The logical disjunction is almost painful.

nhautamaki,
"Many abortions would be carried out regardless, illegally." So by your logic, we should make drugs legal as well, given that peolpe will use them, "regardless."

"some of those abortions that are not carried out would result in the easily and knowably preventable death of the mother." Many pro-lifers would agree to abortions in order to save the life of the mother. In a position where a fetus threatens your life, self-defense is a valid argument. Yet I would ask, how many mothers would not risk their lives in order to save their child?

"Others would result in babies that are severely handicapped, placed in the care of a mother that clearly either does not have the means or the motivation to care for them." So by your logic, the old, the infirm, the handicapped whose families do not have "the means or the motivation to care for them" should also be terminated? Murder justified by necessity? You also conveniently omit the possibility of putting a child up for adoption. Many families who cannot have children of their own are forced to go overseas to find babies for adoption, as there are so few in America.

"in almost [all] cases [abortion is] the lesser of two evils." Funny, I would think murder could never be justified as "the lesser of two evils." By your logic, we could certainly justify the war in Iraq. By the way, it's naive of you to lump all the pro-life "nuts" as pro-war. The Catholic Church, that pro-life bastion to which I adhere to, was against the war.

ctampe You said we should make drugs legal well hell yes we should!!!
First the FDA isn't doing there job in the first place half the drugs people are prescribed has worse side-effects than the casual drugs people use.
Second the amount of money spent on prohibition and housing people for petty drug crimes is really crazy its like 40,000 a year per person. That is like double or triple what people complain about in financial aid from the government.
1.The U.S. federal government spent over $19 billion dollars in 2003 on the War on Drugs, at a rate of about $600 per second. The budget has since been increased by over a billion dollars.
2.Police arrested an estimated 872,720 persons for cannabis violations in 2007, the highest annual total ever recorded in the United States, according to statistics compiled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Of those charged with cannabis violations, approximately 89 percent, 775,137 Americans were charged with possession only. An American is now arrested for violating cannabis laws every 38 seconds.
3.Since December 31, 1995, the U.S. prison population has grown an average of 43,266 inmates per year. About 25 per cent are sentenced for drug law violations.
4.The War on Pot Costs America $42 Billion Annually

And last but not least what state do you live in if you think there aren't enough kids up for adoption?!?!? There are tons of kids who need good homes most may not be white but they are adopted 1st anyway. oh and do i really even need to say anything about the catholic church? Just now admitting holocaust.. pedophiles...church that profited from nazi's...how they treat women and don't even start with the salem witch hunts. Bottom line more people have died in the name of religion than abortion can even come close to..So If your against abortion by all means don't have one that is your personal choice.

ctampe:
Many would agree that the drug laws in America are foolish and counterproductive. Joe Klein just had a slightly tongue-in-cheek but nevertheless convincing article on the topic. Have you ever been to or lived in a country where abortion is illegal, like Romania? It's really not a pretty picture.
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My logic has nothing to do with the old, the infirm, or the handicapped. We're talking about fetuses here. I ignored the possibility of adoption because I can't imagine too many people breaking down the doors desperate to try to adopt a baby with Down's Syndrome or Autism or even FAS.
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War in Iraq turned out to be by far the greater of evils, as many, especially those outside of America, had predicted, so no, you could not justify it on those grounds. I suppose the jury is still out on war in Afghanistan, but there's no doubt that outside the wildly unrealistic 'morality' espoused by the pope, in the real world there are justifications for almost anything that involve being the lesser of two evils.
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Let's put it this way: the republicans ran America into the ground for about 3 decades, and now, finally, they have been fired for their incompetence. Surely you can agree this is a good thing. Well the Catholics ran Europe and Western civilisation into the ground for about 1000 years, and they finally started getting fired around 500 years ago. Just like the republicans, the Catholics had everything their own way for a long, long time, and finally people started to realise what a truly bad thing that was. The parallels here are irresistable.

To Lester and Bonepress (and any other self rightous religious or not individual out there)...What makes you think you know what God wants (much less that there is a God)? What if the young pregnant girl who desires an abortion feels she is doing what is best for the baby? Perhaps she knows her parents will abuse her, perhaps she knows the father is not good parent material, perhaps she knows she is not good parent material...regardless of "why", she is confident that having this baby will not be good for the baby...don't we honestly wish that "parents" who end up in the news because of their failures as parents would have not become parents in the first place...? "So put it up for adoption" you say...then the young mother can wonder if the current foster care or adopted child VICTIM in the news was theirs or if a similar fate has befallen her baby and it simply hasn't made the news...perhaps by "giving the baby back to God" the young scared girl is truly doing what she thinks is best for the baby. But really, what difference does it make? Do you really think that "God" needs man to make American Laws that help him control the choices that people make...? Didn't "God" give free will...wasn't that the point of the apple? Does God even value the choice an individual makes if the choice isn't an effort to do his will but rather just a citizen of the US doing what the law says she must do...how is that valuable in a "choose the right" sort of way? Do you think it is Gods plan that free will be done away with so that people might be forced to believe? Could that ever be considered "FAITH"? The ONLY difference between the two sides of this issue is faith...do the faithful really think they can force faith on the nonbelievers...? The choice of a woman to act in the way she believes is best for her own body is the womans choice alone...if she seeks guidance then that too is her choice!

Now I am going to rant...the whole issue of abortion and the religous institutions that continue to make it an issue reflects so poorly on those religions!! I would like some religous person to explain something to me...
When a baby is still born how do you explain it in a "God is merciful" sort of way? For that matter when any innocent is killed by way of war, accident, murder, illness...how do you console eachother? Don't you say "it is God's will?" don't you basically believe that God is always testing "us"...that tragedy is always "God's plan?" Do you not console the woman who desparately wants to become pregnant that when God sees fit He will make it so...Why then do you not believe that God probably has some sort of inclination that when He "allows" a woman to become pregnant that doesn't want to become pregnant,she will probably abort...why does He allow that to happen? If God is all powerful and he doesn't want women to abort, then why does He allow them to become pregnant when he must they know that they will abort...if there is a God, and He want's (as the Bible tells us so) his children to choose to be good, then isn't the choice to have an abortion or not part of His devine plan...one of the many tests He has in place to help us learn to be good, or a test to separate the "Chosen Few" from the unworthy? I certainly believe that religion is a necessary tool to ensure the survival of a human society...but I also believe that if the tool is misused it could ensure the death of the society as easily. Many people need to be intimidated into doing good...they need the fear of God's wrath to help them make choices that are good for society as a whole...but many people do not need the motivation of fear to do good. If you try to force the naturally good to be falsely good (fear of wrath) you risk a backlash that ultimately will cause the naturally good to force the falsely good to see that their fear is unwarranted. Then, the falsely good will no longer fear the wrath of God, and will no longer be good...bad situation. Keep religion out of public policy and don't try to force the fear down the throats of those who do not need it. Just a suggestion...

Why is this not a simple legal definition?
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A fetus is not a citizen of the United States. Neither is a citizen of Spain. The mother is a citizen of the United States.
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A fetus has no rights under the Constitution. The mother does.
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A fetus cannot be brought to term by another citizen of the United States unless the mother gives permission. A citizen of Spain cannot be assisted by the United States while in Spain unless Spain gives permission.
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A fetus cannot be murdered and it's murderer prosecuted by the United Sates justice system because the murder did not occur on US soil. It occured in the dominion of the womb. A citizen of Spain that commits a murder but is not in the United States at any time before, during, or after the crime cannot be prosecuted for the crime by the United States.
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If women choose to give up this legal definition of the dominion they have over their own bodies then I say their organs are also forfeit and those can be sold to the highest bidder.
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If the Catholic Church could inspire people to follow "the word" then I suppose abortion wouldn't happen. The Church's fallback position is to use the police of this country as its enforcers. The failure is with the Church, not the society it's standing in.