Fig Leaf

I guess I'm in a humorous mood today, Joe.
.
Maybe the Israelis should take advantage of Obama's support for space settlements (see ms's post earlier).
.
That way, the Israelis have something that they can "settle", the Palestinians have a major roadblock removed, and maybe they can all get away from the postively evil course toward polartization they are currently headed in...

Also, thank you for noting that the "settlements" are all illegal.

Why just call on Obama to have courage, how about the right wing, the cabal of McCain, Lindsay and Lieberman to step up and denounce the settlements.

Joe Klein:
.
It's incredibly courageous of you to use words like "illegal" in the context of Israeli policy.
.
Yes, you are entirely correct to point out that a great majority of American Jewry (as demonstrated by J-Street's polling data) are not at all the radical extremists who constitute the membership of AIPAC.
.
Thank you so much for describing the situation in the Knesset as a journalist and not an ideologue -- or a journalist afraid of ideologues.

Thank you for telling us about the poll which shows that the Israel lobby does not represent the thinking of the majority of Jewish Americans who are fair-minded and want a peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I am sure most Israelis and Palestinians want a peaceful solution as well. If only wishes would come true.

"For a great many of us--Jews who support Israel, but not these policies--this government is an embarrassment."
.
Are there any other countries guilty of war crimes you that you support? Or is sharing the same religion as the war criminals running the country a prerequisite to your support? Are you ever going to write about Israel's use of white phosphorous on civilians? How about the T-shirts that make it plain that what happened in Gaza was ETHNIC CLEANSING?
.

The Israeli daily Haaretz newspaper reported that Israeli soldiers who had finished basic training ordered the shirts, one of which showed a pregnant Arab in the crosshairs of a gun sight with a caption reading "1 Shot 2 Kills." Another showing a small child in a gun's sight was captioned, "The smaller they are, the harder it is."
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/23/israel.gaza.un.report/
.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090323/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_army
.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza-probe20-2009mar20,0,1821341.story

Egad - what terrible news. It seems like peace there is farther away than ever.
.
Eh, and cinncinatus, Joe is not the enemy here.

This may be pie in the sky thinking but the truth is I think its going to help President Obama to have Bibi and Lieberman in charge in Israel. Put it to you this way, with Ehud Barak you had a guy who was singing a good tune but allowing settlements and doing other things that were against Israel interests and our own. But because of the public face he put on it I think it would have been harder for President Obama to challenge him. But I have a feeling that Bibi and Avigdor will be much more bellicose and will actually brag about the things they do. Because of this it may make it easier for President Obama to actually call them out. Now the problem is after the Chas Freeman situation I honestly don't have any confidence that President Obama will be willing to do it unless the I/P conflict gets to a crisis point. But this is one issue I hope to be proven wrong on.

For a great many of us--Jews who support Israel, but not these policies,
.
How sad it is that you need to add the disclaimer.
.
I'm reminded of my reaction when I read this from Glenn this morning:
.
Cheerleading for someone because they're on "your team" is appropriate for a sporting event, not for political matters. Political leaders deserve support only to the extent that their actions, on a case-by-case basis, merit that support...
.
There are certain things that are just blindingly obvious to everyone except the people who don't beleive them.

Joe's not the enemy, but I feel his religious affiliation is blinding him to some other things...like the atrocities I've listed. Americans don't have a clue as to what's been reported regarding the Gaza bloodbath because people like Joe won't write about it.

SG:
.
I'm thinking not.
.
These nuts almost certainly will attack Iran.
.
What do you think might happen when the supply of oil in the entire region gets disrupted.
.
I worry that it might put nearly everything that Obama has tried to do for the economy in jeopardy:
.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/29/world/main4762596.shtml

Joe:
.
I heard that 7 Labor of 13 labor MPs don't back the move. I know that it was supported by the Labor executives:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960599.stm
.
But do you honestly think Labor will hold together with Lieberman becoming Israel's face to the world and Netanyahu intractably against sovereignty for Palestine?

And how wrong does all this make Bush look? If all the settlements are illegal, that adds more Israeli violations of UN resolutions. Why was that so bad when Iraq did it? Also, let's look at the 'democracies don't commit aggression' delusion. The Israelis and Palestinians both fight, and both have elections, and each aspect makes the other worse, resulting in more hawkish governments that are less likely to negotiate, which leads to more fighting, repeat loop from start. It does remain key though, for there to be any hope, is for Jewish Americans who want a two-state solution NOW to resist the Likudniks on both sides of the pond, and do everything they can to prevent an Iran strike by anyone. That way lies madness, and worldwide depression. People like Joe here, MJ Rosenberg, Eric Alterman, and Glenn Greenwald are key, because they're at least insulated from the Hitler trope and at worst, and inevitably, will be called self-loathing...

[...] myself doing research in the University library for a class that ended up not happening, that Ehud Barak has brought the Labor party into a governing coalition with Netanyahu’s Likud. The article he linked to is the standard panicky screed Joe Klein has [...]

Joe: you are moving into a part of the world inhabited by many Israelis who are both stalwarts citizens and honest critics of the settlement policy. In the end standing up for your beliefs about what is good for Israel and Palestine is better than being for the extremism that has its adherents on both sides.

It is refreshing to read Joe in a sceptical mood. But until Joe, Glenzilla and others openly come out and discuss the double standard at work on the nuke issue with Iran I will withold judgement. Isn't it odd that israel wants us to attack Iran because it is "developing" a nuclear capacity while everyone ignores the fact that Israel has nuclear bombs. The hypocrisy and arrogance of Israel will be it undoing.

Ehud's last name is Barak. Obama's first name is Barack. I suspect they both appreciate those who get that right.

The biggest problem Obama will face is how quickly he will be labeled antisemitic, mainly by both the US and Israeli right. Personally I don't think that technique is as effective now as it was in the past and he ought to be able to press ahead with a two state solution. If memory serves the last issue during the Clinton era was the number of Palestinians who would have the right to return to Israel. To me the mathematics alone prevent the possibility of Hamas getting elected in Israel, as some argue, even if you let them all return. There are about 5 times as many Israelis as Palestinians. If there is a Palestine, and if there were really good incentives to being a citizen of that country, the numbers returning to Israel would be even less. Why not start off where the Clinton plan ended and see how much of a coalition the new Israeli gov't actually is? That area would explode economically if they ever solved the issue.

Does the socialist klein understand that, fortunately, people elect right wing governments? And he's so in love with Obama that he thinks he's a socialist too. He's not. Nor can he be in America. Thank GOD!
Israelis, a cultured people, are surrounded by bandits. The center tried what mr Klein wants: WEAKNESS.
The Israelis know better.

"Does the socialist klein understand that, fortunately, people elect right wing governments? And he's so in love with Obama that he thinks he's a socialist too. He's not. Nor can he be in America. Thank GOD!
Israelis, a cultured people, are surrounded by bandits. The center tried what mr Klein wants: WEAKNESS.
The Israelis know better."
.
I don't usually comment on this type of thing, but this is by far the most non-sensical bit of rambling I've seen on these boards. Hulagate's rants have more structure and make more sense than the verbal diarrhea highlighted above.

Because Ehud Barak is from the Labor Party, and there is a perception that the Labor Party is the "dovish" party of Israel, many believe he will provide Bibi with some international cover. Don't believe the hype!! Barak is a party hack who has sold out the ideals of his party for power. And settlements!! My goodness, when Barak took over the Netanyahu he INCREASED settlement building!! That's right, settlement building increased under a "dovish" government. Don't you think Bibi doesn't know this? Why do you think Barak is so acceptable to Bibi? The difference between Likud and Labor is the same difference between "moderates" and "hard-liners" in Iran. Just as between Republicans and Democrats that politics stops at the water's edge, in Israel the difference between Labor & Likud (& Tzipi's party as well) stops at the Green Line (which keeps expanding eastward).

No Joe, actually not all West Bank "settlements" are illegal. The land is disputed. There has never been a sovereign country called "Palestine," the area is disputed and both sides have tried to stake a claim. It is clear who you side with, but it is generally recognized that the dispute over land will be cleared up in negotiations (Palestinian leaders have already agreed to land swaps in previous negotiations, thus recognizing that some "settlements" will be a part of Israel. I guess you are trying to be more Catholic than the Pope, so to speak).

Tell me, what is the legality of the lands the U.S. took from the Native-Americans? When are you returning that land, or boycotting your own country?

International law, and the relevant U.N. resolutions, calls for Israel to give back "territories," but not "all" the territories. Look it up.

It's funny to me that you bend over backwards to criticize Israel at every turn, in effect saying, "I'm not like those bad Jews. I'm liberal and I hate Israel, just like you!" and yet still, your super-left wing readers incredibly accuse you of pro-Israel bias in the comments section. That must be really frustrating for a person who has gone out of his way to be biased against Israel.

You call Lieberman racist. Have you ever called Mahmoud Abbas racist? He wrote a thesis denying the Holocaust, but I guess that's OK because he's the "underdog," and he's not Jewish.

Keep up the Israel bashing. Maybe one day you will get the liberal approval you so desperately need. How quickly will I be called a fascist or liar for this post?

For those interested in the truth about the poll Klein cites:

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/rosner/entry/j_street_s_survey_is

But the press release also mentions that supporters of engagement will be willing to tolerate it "even if it means publicly disagreeing with or exerting pressure on both Arabs and Israelis". That's somewhat misleading because the way the questions in this survey were framed people didn't have much choice: "Would you support or oppose the United States playing an active role in helping the parties to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict if it meant the United States publicly stating its disagreements with both the Israelis and the Arabs?" 46% strongly support, 39% somewhat support. J Street conveniently count this as 86% of support. I think that's hardly the case: the 39% who somewhat support meant to say that they support the "pressure on Arabs" but not "pressure on Israelis" part. Thus, there's a strong case to be made that they should be counted with a majority opposing pressure on Israel.

Same problem one might have with the question of "exerting pressure on both the Israelis and Arabs". 43% strongly support such pressure. Presumably on both, but it can also be: strongly support a pressure when it's justified, and are more likely to think that pressure on the Arab side is more justified. But even if you count all "strong" supporters as people supporting pressure on Israel, there's still no majority, because the conclusion regarding "somewhat" people is really questionable.

Don't worry, an airstrike in iran will make it all worse.

[...] Here’s Joe Klein Meanwhile, the Netanyahu government poses a real challenge to Barak Obama. What, if anything, does [...]