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	<title>Comments on: Walks Like A Duck, Talks Like A Duck...Ain&#039;t A Duck</title>
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	<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/</link>
	<description>A blog about politics.</description>
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		<title>By: smellytourist</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-3/#comment-34325</link>
		<dc:creator>smellytourist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34325</guid>
		<description>The meeting with the far-righties was just for show. I&#039;m a conservative, and I know Obama is far, far left, buy cryptic on some issues--
http://smellytourist.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/what-you-may-not-know-about-obama-and-homosexuals/
from
www.smellytourist.wordpress.com
(CONSERVATIVE SITE DEDICATED TO HARRY REID)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The meeting with the far-righties was just for show. I'm a conservative, and I know Obama is far, far left, buy cryptic on some issues--<br />
<a href="http://smellytourist.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/what-you-may-not-know-about-obama-and-homosexuals/" rel="nofollow">http://smellytourist.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/what-you-may-not-know-about-obama-and-homosexuals/</a><br />
from<br />
<a href="http://www.smellytourist.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.smellytourist.wordpress.com</a><br />
(CONSERVATIVE SITE DEDICATED TO HARRY REID)</p>
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		<title>By: nathanredondo</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-3/#comment-34279</link>
		<dc:creator>nathanredondo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34279</guid>
		<description>Joe- it is &lt;strong&gt;amazing&lt;/strong&gt; to me the length that you in the mainstream media will go to defend the indefensible. The naivete you expose is outright incredible.

Obama&#039;s economic policies are on a collision course with the lessons of history: we get to look forward to four more years of seignorage accompanying by the mortgaging of our futures to the Chinese and Japanese, all with the hope that a massive misallocation of resources by the federal government (in favor of a lot of wasteful projects that are sexy to the starbucks crowd) will save us from the mess that they same behavior created.

While Bush just spent all of our money in mismanaging the Iraq war, expanding Section D of Medicare and expanding the dept of education massively, we now get to look forward to Obama spending close to a trillion dollars on Mob Museums and energy conservation gimmicks. Adam Smith is turning over in his grave so fast he may qualify as an alternative energy source under the stimulus! Same Sh*t, Different President.

The only good thing that may happen under Obama is that he may rethink excessive overseas commitments that we can no longer afford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe- it is <strong>amazing</strong> to me the length that you in the mainstream media will go to defend the indefensible. The naivete you expose is outright incredible.</p>
<p>Obama's economic policies are on a collision course with the lessons of history: we get to look forward to four more years of seignorage accompanying by the mortgaging of our futures to the Chinese and Japanese, all with the hope that a massive misallocation of resources by the federal government (in favor of a lot of wasteful projects that are sexy to the starbucks crowd) will save us from the mess that they same behavior created.</p>
<p>While Bush just spent all of our money in mismanaging the Iraq war, expanding Section D of Medicare and expanding the dept of education massively, we now get to look forward to Obama spending close to a trillion dollars on Mob Museums and energy conservation gimmicks. Adam Smith is turning over in his grave so fast he may qualify as an alternative energy source under the stimulus! Same Sh*t, Different President.</p>
<p>The only good thing that may happen under Obama is that he may rethink excessive overseas commitments that we can no longer afford.</p>
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		<title>By: Walks Like A Duck, Talks Like A Duck&#8230;Ain&#8217;t A Duck&#160;&#124;&#160;Health Directory - Articles</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34278</link>
		<dc:creator>Walks Like A Duck, Talks Like A Duck&#8230;Ain&#8217;t A Duck&#160;&#124;&#160;Health Directory - Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34278</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the original post: Walks Like A Duck, Talks Like A Duck&#8230;Ain&#8217;t A Duck [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the original post: Walks Like A Duck, Talks Like A Duck&#8230;Ain&#8217;t A Duck [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34269</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34269</guid>
		<description>OK, One last time: &lt;a href=&quot;http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6898186586680860143&amp;ei=d6BuSYP-BILorgLKr53EBQ&amp;q=thomas+frank&amp;hl=en&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Link to Frank talking to local dudes in Kansas&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, One last time: <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6898186586680860143&amp;ei=d6BuSYP-BILorgLKr53EBQ&amp;q=thomas+frank&amp;hl=en" rel="nofollow">Link to Frank talking to local dudes in Kansas</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34268</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34268</guid>
		<description>Um, That didn&#039;t turn out as well as I hoped. Let&#039;s try again: &lt;a href=&quot;http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6898186586680860143&amp;ei=d6BuSYP-BILorgLKr53EBQ&amp;q=thomas+frank&amp;hl=en&lt;/a&gt;Frank can hang with the locals fine&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, That didn't turn out as well as I hoped. Let's try again: &lt;a href=&quot;http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6898186586680860143&amp;ei=d6BuSYP-BILorgLKr53EBQ&amp;q=thomas+frank&amp;hl=enFrank can hang with the locals fine.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34266</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34266</guid>
		<description>We could use some bellowing now and then. We&#039;re recovering from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://policingwingnutwelfare.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-milquetoast-will-play-next.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alan Colmes era of liberal advocacy&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;ll agree that &lt;a href=&quot;http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/bubba-isnt-who-you-think/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Thomas Frank is more an essayist than wonk&lt;/a&gt;. He&#039;s a good one though. Be we need these kinds of voices after the past few years. And his latest book isn&#039;t half bad either--it&#039;s not all that different from Jon Chait&#039;s latest book, really.

&lt;i&gt;That may be bad news for polemicists like Frank; I suspect it will be very good news for the working people he says he cares about, but whose lives--both religious and economic--seem entirely foreign to him.&lt;/i&gt;

Leave the pseudo-anti-intellectualism to the movement conservatives. &lt;a href=&quot;http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&amp;hl=en&amp;rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS244&amp;q=thomas%20frank%20kansas&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#q=thomas%20frank&amp;hl=en&amp;emb=0&amp;start=20&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Frank can hang with the locals fine&lt;/a&gt;. Washington seems to be full of eggheads trying desperately not to look egghead, and accusing each other of being eggheads (while &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Feith#Former_Coalition_Provisional_Authority_Official_General_Jay_Garner_.28Ret..29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the worst eggheads in the worst tradition are never called on it&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f9944ce3-fc34-4112-8f1a-34e7e6a7b7c9&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Even George Will does it, which is absurd&lt;/a&gt;. You should give it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We could use some bellowing now and then. We're recovering from the <a href="http://policingwingnutwelfare.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-milquetoast-will-play-next.html" rel="nofollow">Alan Colmes era of liberal advocacy</a>. I'll agree that <a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/bubba-isnt-who-you-think/" rel="nofollow">Thomas Frank is more an essayist than wonk</a>. He's a good one though. Be we need these kinds of voices after the past few years. And his latest book isn't half bad either--it's not all that different from Jon Chait's latest book, really.</p>
<p><i>That may be bad news for polemicists like Frank; I suspect it will be very good news for the working people he says he cares about, but whose lives--both religious and economic--seem entirely foreign to him.</i></p>
<p>Leave the pseudo-anti-intellectualism to the movement conservatives. <a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&amp;hl=en&amp;rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS244&amp;q=thomas%20frank%20kansas&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#q=thomas%20frank&amp;hl=en&amp;emb=0&amp;start=20" rel="nofollow">Frank can hang with the locals fine</a>. Washington seems to be full of eggheads trying desperately not to look egghead, and accusing each other of being eggheads (while <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Feith#Former_Coalition_Provisional_Authority_Official_General_Jay_Garner_.28Ret..29" rel="nofollow">the worst eggheads in the worst tradition are never called on it</a>. <a href="http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f9944ce3-fc34-4112-8f1a-34e7e6a7b7c9" rel="nofollow">Even George Will does it, which is absurd</a>. You should give it up.</p>
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		<title>By: stuartzechman</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34259</link>
		<dc:creator>stuartzechman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34259</guid>
		<description>Joe Klein:
.
Do you consider yourself a centrist who is opposed to liberalism?
.
It&#039;s not really fair or honest to criticize Thomas Frank&#039;s column for Clinton-bashing, because he&#039;s really centrist-bashing.  He&#039;s merely pointing out in mainstream print what we liberals online have been noting for some time:
.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;i&gt;Centrism is something of a cult here in Washington, D.C., and a more specious superstition you never saw. Its adherents pretend to worship at the altar of the great American middle, but in fact they stick closely to a very particular view of events regardless of what the public says it wants.&lt;/i&gt;
.
&lt;i&gt;And through it all, centrism bills itself as the most transgressive sort of exercise imaginable. Its partisans are &quot;New Democrats,&quot; &quot;Radical Centrists,&quot; clear-eyed believers in a &quot;Third Way.&quot; The red-hot tepids, we might call them -- the jellybeans of steel.&lt;/i&gt;
.
&lt;i&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The reason centrism finds an enthusiastic audience in Washington, I think, is because it appeals naturally to the Beltway journalistic mindset, with its professional prohibition against coming down solidly on one side or the other of any question.&lt;/strong&gt; Splitting the difference is a way of life in this cynical town. To hear politicians insist that it is also the way of the statesman, I suspect, gives journalists a secret thrill.&lt;/i&gt;
.
&lt;i&gt;Yet what the Beltway centrist characteristically longs for is not so much to transcend politics but to close off debate on the grounds that he -- and the vast silent middle for which he stands -- knows beyond question what is to be done.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
.
Thomas Frank apparently believes (like many of us) that the ideology of centrism has also failed as a set of principles by which successful governance can thrive.  His issue is with the ideology of centrism, not ideological moderation (vs extremism).  He points out that radical, extreme centrism has a history of failure (examples of which one can readily find examining the record of the Clinton presidency) that, while not as awful as the past eight years of reigning movement conservatism, will probably similarly fail to sufficiently correct the damage done by rightist rule.
.
I don&#039;t believe that you&#039;re so obtuse as to have completely missed Frank&#039;s point, which is not at all about the Clintons, which is not about moderation as opposed to extremism, and which is certainly not about polemicist ranting, Joe Klein.
.
But that leaves us with the impression that you&#039;re somehow unwilling to honestly tell the public where you stand.  If you&#039;re not left or right, but center, then tell us so, Joe.  Tell us that you&#039;re attacking Frank because he&#039;s attacking centrists --which means you.
.
Are you willing to honestly tell the public that you are or are not a proponent of the ideology of Centrism (for which Thomas Frank takes you to task personally in his observer article &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.observer.com/node/38759&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Joe Klein&#039;s Turnip Day&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;), Joe Klein?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Klein:<br />
.<br />
Do you consider yourself a centrist who is opposed to liberalism?<br />
.<br />
It's not really fair or honest to criticize Thomas Frank's column for Clinton-bashing, because he's really centrist-bashing.  He's merely pointing out in mainstream print what we liberals online have been noting for some time:<br />
.</p>
<blockquote><p>
<i>Centrism is something of a cult here in Washington, D.C., and a more specious superstition you never saw. Its adherents pretend to worship at the altar of the great American middle, but in fact they stick closely to a very particular view of events regardless of what the public says it wants.</i><br />
.<br />
<i>And through it all, centrism bills itself as the most transgressive sort of exercise imaginable. Its partisans are "New Democrats," "Radical Centrists," clear-eyed believers in a "Third Way." The red-hot tepids, we might call them -- the jellybeans of steel.</i><br />
.<br />
<i><strong>The reason centrism finds an enthusiastic audience in Washington, I think, is because it appeals naturally to the Beltway journalistic mindset, with its professional prohibition against coming down solidly on one side or the other of any question.</strong> Splitting the difference is a way of life in this cynical town. To hear politicians insist that it is also the way of the statesman, I suspect, gives journalists a secret thrill.</i><br />
.<br />
<i>Yet what the Beltway centrist characteristically longs for is not so much to transcend politics but to close off debate on the grounds that he -- and the vast silent middle for which he stands -- knows beyond question what is to be done.</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>.<br />
Thomas Frank apparently believes (like many of us) that the ideology of centrism has also failed as a set of principles by which successful governance can thrive.  His issue is with the ideology of centrism, not ideological moderation (vs extremism).  He points out that radical, extreme centrism has a history of failure (examples of which one can readily find examining the record of the Clinton presidency) that, while not as awful as the past eight years of reigning movement conservatism, will probably similarly fail to sufficiently correct the damage done by rightist rule.<br />
.<br />
I don't believe that you're so obtuse as to have completely missed Frank's point, which is not at all about the Clintons, which is not about moderation as opposed to extremism, and which is certainly not about polemicist ranting, Joe Klein.<br />
.<br />
But that leaves us with the impression that you're somehow unwilling to honestly tell the public where you stand.  If you're not left or right, but center, then tell us so, Joe.  Tell us that you're attacking Frank because he's attacking centrists --which means you.<br />
.<br />
Are you willing to honestly tell the public that you are or are not a proponent of the ideology of Centrism (for which Thomas Frank takes you to task personally in his observer article <a href="http://www.observer.com/node/38759" rel="nofollow"><strong>Joe Klein's Turnip Day</strong></a>), Joe Klein?</p>
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		<title>By: shepherdwong</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34249</link>
		<dc:creator>shepherdwong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34249</guid>
		<description>I should add that what also animates the right is defeating or otherwise obstructing liberal policy-making or any policy-making that might make government successful at making people&#039;s lives better. That undermines their entire argument for being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that what also animates the right is defeating or otherwise obstructing liberal policy-making or any policy-making that might make government successful at making people's lives better. That undermines their entire argument for being.</p>
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		<title>By: shepherdwong</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34241</link>
		<dc:creator>shepherdwong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34241</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;am I the crazy one to suggest that centrism is not a political orientation like being on the right or on the left but a way of governing?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
.
I don&#039;t know about the first but you obviously don&#039;t understand the nature of left-right politics and government. Only &quot;centrism&quot; and &quot;the left&quot; are concerned with governing - you could say that is what defines and animates them. What defines and animates &quot;the right&quot; is undermining government&#039;s ability to tax (particularly progressively) and regulate corporate industry, especially if taxpayer monies can also be re-distributed to certain private sector industries. Inasmuch as &quot;centrism&quot; represents a corruption of liberal governing philosophy by &quot;conservative&quot; non or anti-governing ideology, it is generally an &lt;i&gt;inferior&lt;/i&gt; &quot;way of governing&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"am I the crazy one to suggest that centrism is not a political orientation like being on the right or on the left but a way of governing?"</i><br />
.<br />
I don't know about the first but you obviously don't understand the nature of left-right politics and government. Only "centrism" and "the left" are concerned with governing - you could say that is what defines and animates them. What defines and animates "the right" is undermining government's ability to tax (particularly progressively) and regulate corporate industry, especially if taxpayer monies can also be re-distributed to certain private sector industries. Inasmuch as "centrism" represents a corruption of liberal governing philosophy by "conservative" non or anti-governing ideology, it is generally an <i>inferior</i> "way of governing".</p>
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		<title>By: shepherdwong</title>
		<link>http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/14/walks-like-a-duck-talks-like-a-duckaint-a-duck/comment-page-2/#comment-34232</link>
		<dc:creator>shepherdwong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9666#comment-34232</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Considering that Frank&#039;s thesis was essentially that the people of Kansas should be voting for Democrats based on Democrats&#039; existing policies and that they weren&#039;t because of &quot;the body language&quot;, I find it odd that you would criticize him for failing to suggest a policy that the Dems should pursue.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
.
I caught that too, sqr1. The Villager arguing the policy instead of the political angle must have caught my eye (though Joe does that from time to time). Shorter Frank: Kansans don&#039;t vote on policy.
---

Tom @14, I think you nailed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"Considering that Frank's thesis was essentially that the people of Kansas should be voting for Democrats based on Democrats' existing policies and that they weren't because of "the body language", I find it odd that you would criticize him for failing to suggest a policy that the Dems should pursue."</i><br />
.<br />
I caught that too, sqr1. The Villager arguing the policy instead of the political angle must have caught my eye (though Joe does that from time to time). Shorter Frank: Kansans don't vote on policy.<br />
---</p>
<p>Tom @14, I think you nailed it.</p>
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