Comments on: Yet Again With the Nazis http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/ A blog about politics. Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:29:12 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Gaza, HAMAS and everything about it « Our World Today - Gain Perspective http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-33263 Gaza, HAMAS and everything about it « Our World Today - Gain Perspective Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:17:05 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-33263 [...] a comment » So, TIME magazine decided to be “neutral” for once. The author of the article says that he does not take [...] [...] a comment » So, TIME magazine decided to be “neutral” for once. The author of the article says that he does not take [...]

]]> By: pluto98 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32657 pluto98 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:07:53 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32657 I wonder how many residents would have been there at all if the Israelis had not sealed the borders. I wonder how many residents would have been there at all if the Israelis had not sealed the borders.

]]> By: lpforneauxiii http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32613 lpforneauxiii Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:33:52 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32613 They may not have been in the school---not yet clear---but they certainly were right around it. From the AP: "Two residents of the area reached by phone told the Associated Press that they saw a small group of gunmen firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal. In addition, Palestinian residents said that several gunmen ran toward the crowd, trying to use it as cover, when the first Israeli mortar shell missed them." They may not have been in the school---not yet clear---but they certainly were right around it. From the AP:

"Two residents of the area reached by phone told the Associated Press that they saw a small group of gunmen firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

In addition, Palestinian residents said that several gunmen ran toward the crowd, trying to use it as cover, when the first Israeli mortar shell missed them."

]]> By: pluto98 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32601 pluto98 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:59:46 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32601 Oh look, the BBC are reporting that IDF commanders are privately admitting that there were in fact no Hamas fighters in the UN school. So, it turns out that the UN aren't actually in league with Hamas after all. What a surprise. Oh look, the BBC are reporting that IDF commanders are privately admitting that there were in fact no Hamas fighters in the UN school. So, it turns out that the UN aren't actually in league with Hamas after all. What a surprise.

]]> By: pintortwo http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32504 pintortwo Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:05:29 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32504 Jacob- My mistake. I came across a reference to it, googled, found that site and, obviously, didn't research it further. I thought it was an example of rhetoric that does not reflect the group ethos and shouldn't be taken seriously. It's certainly that and more- it's BS, a forgery, a propaganda tool. I'm embarrassed to have referenced it. Laziness, my apologies. Jacob- My mistake. I came across a reference to it, googled, found that site and, obviously, didn't research it further. I thought it was an example of rhetoric that does not reflect the group ethos and shouldn't be taken seriously. It's certainly that and more- it's BS, a forgery, a propaganda tool. I'm embarrassed to have referenced it. Laziness, my apologies.

]]> By: lpforneauxiii http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32499 lpforneauxiii Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:55:57 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32499 Pintortwo, the "rhetoric" in the charter is backed up by a policy of deliberately targeting civillians and celebrating and glorifying the deaths of "Jews" (not even "Israelis"). Any Christian organization that used the Rapture as the foundation for killing or force-coverting Jews today would be, uh, shall we say, "problematic." Now, unless I'm mistaken, you just quoted the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a proven forgery, to make your point. Was that supposed to be a joke??? Pintortwo, the "rhetoric" in the charter is backed up by a policy of deliberately targeting civillians and celebrating and glorifying the deaths of "Jews" (not even "Israelis"). Any Christian organization that used the Rapture as the foundation for killing or force-coverting Jews today would be, uh, shall we say, "problematic."

Now, unless I'm mistaken, you just quoted the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a proven forgery, to make your point. Was that supposed to be a joke???

]]> By: jacobblues http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32465 jacobblues Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:44:26 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32465 Pint or two, . Let me make sure I have this correct. You're arguing that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a known forgery, is on par with the founding charter of HAMAS? . Pint or two,
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Let me make sure I have this correct. You're arguing that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a known forgery, is on par with the founding charter of HAMAS?
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]]> By: pintortwo http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-3/#comment-32388 pintortwo Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:45:16 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32388 @lpforneauxiii-- Don't get carried away by the inflammatory nature of Hamas' charter. This sort of language is not uncommon and doesn't justify the violence. To wit, The Rapture. Among other things, it refers to a time when all Jews will be killed or converted into Catholicism- does that mean that Catholics must be shunned from society? is it justification for extermination of Evangelicals? . So too, <a href="http://www.theprotocolsofzion.org/" rel="nofollow">The Protocols of the Elders of Zion</a> describes world-domination by the Jews. . . <i>(#1) 23. Our countersign is - Force and Make-believe. Only force conquers in political affairs, especially if it be concealed in the talents essential to statesmen. Violence must be the principle, and cunning and make-believe the rule for governments which do not want to lay down their crowns at the feet of agents of some new power. This evil is the one and only means to attain the end, the good. Therefore we must not stop at bribery, deceit and treachery when they should serve towards the attainment of our end. In politics one must know how to seize the property of others without hesitation if by it we secure submission and sovereignty. . 24. Our State, marching along the path of peaceful conquest, has the right to replace the horrors of war by less noticeable and more satisfactory sentences of death, necessary to maintain the terror which tends to produce blind submission. Just but merciless severity is the greatest factor of strength in the State: not only for the sake of gain but also in the name of duty, for the sake of victory, we must keep to the programme of violence and make-believe. The doctrine of squaring accounts is precisely as strong as the means of which it makes use. Therefore it is not so much by the means themselves as by the doctrine of severity that we shall triumph and bring all governments into subjection to our super-government. It is enough for them to know that we are too merciless for all disobedience to cease. . -snip- . (#2) 7. We appear on the scene as alleged saviours of the worker from this oppression when we propose to him to enter the ranks of our fighting forces - Socialists, Anarchists, Communists - to whom we always give support in accordance with an alleged brotherly rule of our SOCIAL MASONRY. The aristocracy, which enjoyed by law the labor of the workers, was interested in seeing that the workers were well fed, healthy, and strong. We are interested in just the opposite - in the diminution, the KILLING OUT OF THE GOYIM. Our power is in the chronic shortness of food and physical weakness of the worker because by all that this implies he is made the slave of our will, and he will not find in his own authorities either strength or energy to set against our will. Hunger creates the right of capital to rule the worker more surely than it was given to the aristocracy by the legal authority of kings. . 8. By want and the envy and hatred which it engenders we shall move the mobs and with their hands we shall wipe out all those who hinder us on our way. . 9. WHEN THE HOUR STRIKES FOR OUR SOVEREIGN LORD OF ALL THE WORLD TO BE CROWNED IT IS THESE SAME HANDS WHICH WILL SWEEP AWAY EVERYTHING THAT MIGHT BE A HINDRANCE THERETO. ... 12. "OURS" THEY WILL NOT TOUCH, BECAUSE THE MOMENT OF ATTACK WILL BE KNOWN TO US AND WE SHALL TAKE MEASURES TO PROTECT OUR OWN. </i> . . Suffice to say, extremists exist on all sides; and moderates. The extremists must be marginalized, the moderates empowered. To me, Israel's actions against Hamas have the opposite effect. @lpforneauxiii-- Don't get carried away by the inflammatory nature of Hamas' charter. This sort of language is not uncommon and doesn't justify the violence. To wit, The Rapture. Among other things, it refers to a time when all Jews will be killed or converted into Catholicism- does that mean that Catholics must be shunned from society? is it justification for extermination of Evangelicals?

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So too, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion describes world-domination by the Jews.

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(#1) 23. Our countersign is - Force and Make-believe. Only force conquers in political affairs, especially if it be concealed in the talents essential to statesmen. Violence must be the principle, and cunning and make-believe the rule for governments which do not want to lay down their crowns at the feet of agents of some new power. This evil is the one and only means to attain the end, the good. Therefore we must not stop at bribery, deceit and treachery when they should serve towards the attainment of our end. In politics one must know how to seize the property of others without hesitation if by it we secure submission and sovereignty.
.

24. Our State, marching along the path of peaceful conquest, has the right to replace the horrors of war by less noticeable and more satisfactory sentences of death, necessary to maintain the terror which tends to produce blind submission. Just but merciless severity is the greatest factor of strength in the State: not only for the sake of gain but also in the name of duty, for the sake of victory, we must keep to the programme of violence and make-believe. The doctrine of squaring accounts is precisely as strong as the means of which it makes use. Therefore it is not so much by the means themselves as by the doctrine of severity that we shall triumph and bring all governments into subjection to our super-government. It is enough for them to know that we are too merciless for all disobedience to cease.

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-snip-

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(#2) 7. We appear on the scene as alleged saviours of the worker from this oppression when we propose to him to enter the ranks of our fighting forces - Socialists, Anarchists, Communists - to whom we always give support in accordance with an alleged brotherly rule of our SOCIAL MASONRY. The aristocracy, which enjoyed by law the labor of the workers, was interested in seeing that the workers were well fed, healthy, and strong. We are interested in just the opposite - in the diminution, the KILLING OUT OF THE GOYIM. Our power is in the chronic shortness of food and physical weakness of the worker because by all that this implies he is made the slave of our will, and he will not find in his own authorities either strength or energy to set against our will. Hunger creates the right of capital to rule the worker more surely than it was given to the aristocracy by the legal authority of kings.

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8. By want and the envy and hatred which it engenders we shall move the mobs and with their hands we shall wipe out all those who hinder us on our way.

.

9. WHEN THE HOUR STRIKES FOR OUR SOVEREIGN LORD OF ALL THE WORLD TO BE CROWNED IT IS THESE SAME HANDS WHICH WILL SWEEP AWAY EVERYTHING THAT MIGHT BE A HINDRANCE THERETO.

...

12. "OURS" THEY WILL NOT TOUCH, BECAUSE THE MOMENT OF ATTACK WILL BE KNOWN TO US AND WE SHALL TAKE MEASURES TO PROTECT OUR OWN.

.

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Suffice to say, extremists exist on all sides; and moderates. The extremists must be marginalized, the moderates empowered. To me, Israel's actions against Hamas have the opposite effect.

]]> By: pluto98 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-2/#comment-32377 pluto98 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:20:09 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32377 I hardly think you can describe anything that Israel is doing in Gaza as 'accidental' Mr Klein... I find Israeli complaints at the rocket attacks on them to be somewhat hollow. Hamas is operating from the most densely populated place on the planet. It's only the most densely populated because the Israelis have made it so. Where else are they supposed to strike from? Hamas have no choice about where they operate from, because the Israelis won't let anyone leave. If the Israelis really cared about civilian casualties as much as they pretend, they would open the border and let the women and children out. Mr Klein mentions Khalid Meshaal in his article, someone who occasionally appears in interviews in the UK (where I am). I seem to recall Mr Meshaal on one occasion responding to the charge that Hamas simply fires their rockets as an indiscriminate terror tactic by pointing out that the only reason Hamas (and the rest) use these rockets is because that is all they have, and if someone would like to provide them with F16s and tanks they would be more than happy to use them against the Israeli occupation instead. Israel is run largely, but not exclusively, by ex-generals who are considered 'war heroes' (half of whom are too scared to travel to Europe in case they get charged with war crimes). These people know that ultimately there is no chance of peace with the Palestinians until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and dismantle a large number of illegal settlements. They find this so unpallatable that it is preferable to them to maintain the occupation by carrying the conflict with Hamas et al for as long as possible. I suppose that we can only hope that Mr Obama will take middle east peace a little more seriously that Mr Bush, but his pronouncements on the subject so far don't really inspire much confidence. I hardly think you can describe anything that Israel is doing in Gaza as 'accidental' Mr Klein...

I find Israeli complaints at the rocket attacks on them to be somewhat hollow. Hamas is operating from the most densely populated place on the planet. It's only the most densely populated because the Israelis have made it so. Where else are they supposed to strike from? Hamas have no choice about where they operate from, because the Israelis won't let anyone leave. If the Israelis really cared about civilian casualties as much as they pretend, they would open the border and let the women and children out. Mr Klein mentions Khalid Meshaal in his article, someone who occasionally appears in interviews in the UK (where I am). I seem to recall Mr Meshaal on one occasion responding to the charge that Hamas simply fires their rockets as an indiscriminate terror tactic by pointing out that the only reason Hamas (and the rest) use these rockets is because that is all they have, and if someone would like to provide them with F16s and tanks they would be more than happy to use them against the Israeli occupation instead.

Israel is run largely, but not exclusively, by ex-generals who are considered 'war heroes' (half of whom are too scared to travel to Europe in case they get charged with war crimes). These people know that ultimately there is no chance of peace with the Palestinians until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and dismantle a large number of illegal settlements. They find this so unpallatable that it is preferable to them to maintain the occupation by carrying the conflict with Hamas et al for as long as possible.

I suppose that we can only hope that Mr Obama will take middle east peace a little more seriously that Mr Bush, but his pronouncements on the subject so far don't really inspire much confidence.

]]> By: lpforneauxiii http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/06/yet-again-with-the-nazis/comment-page-2/#comment-32347 lpforneauxiii Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:40:04 +0000 http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=9448#comment-32347 Let's put things into perspective regarding Hamas and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of comparing it to the Nazis and the likelihood they would have recognized Israel if a "less aggressive tone had been taken." From their official charter: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)." Let's put things into perspective regarding Hamas and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of comparing it to the Nazis and the likelihood they would have recognized Israel if a "less aggressive tone had been taken." From their official charter:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

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