Yet Again With the Nazis

Israel's continued attacks pose an increasing risk of such casualties, and the underlying rationale of shock and awe as deterrent is unacceptable and ought to be declared as such by the international community. They can't "win" against HAMAS, and I suspect that having made its show of force, Israel would now confidentially welcome being held back by onlookers.

Sean, you obviously haven't read enough of HAMAS political manifesto. The organization considers itself part of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it too has a full political system and ideology that's as violent and extreme as the Nazi's except rather than an ethnic centrality, theirs is religious.
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The Nazi's indeed had a problem with the Jews. So too does HAMAS, and in its charter declares that someday, the Muslims are going to rise up and kill us all. I'm sorry, but that's more than just a liberation theology.
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As for ethnic cleansing I think you need to have some clarity. In 1948, the call was to kill all the Jews. Not just from the Palestinian Arabs, but the invading forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. This was all supported by the Arab League. In that war, Israeli casualties were 10% of the population. And while you may complain that a majority of Palestinians fled or were forced out, the reality also is that 100% the Jews living in the parts of the British Mandate that were conquered by the Arab states were driven out. Likewise, the Jewish populations of the Arab/Muslim world were sent packing to the point where outside of Morocco and Iran, you have essentially a Jew free region. This trend continues through today. Three years ago, Israel pulled out every last Jew from Gaza, living and dead. The same, is supposedly expected from any agreement with the Palestinians in the West Bank. By contrast, approximately 20% of Israel's population is Arab Christian or Muslim.
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As for the refugee camps, you can direct your questions to the Arab states that keep their Palestinian brothers and sisters caged (same thing goes for Gaza and the West Bank too).
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As for not negotiating with HAMAS? Why don't you check with them as that was part of the original Israeli demands to remove the blockade after the group took over in Gaza (you know, the idea where HAMAS accepts agreements reached between Israel and the Palestinian Authority). The other two being end the violence and end the incitement to kill Jews. HAMAS, rejected those conditions out of hand and continues to do so. Given this stand, the issue of maps, seems to me at least, secondary.
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However, for the PLO to negotiate with Israel meant that it too had to end its calls to destroy the Jewish state. Of course, depending on who you listen to, the PA either did this, or played fast and loose with that claim. I try to stay optimistic and say that yes, the Palestinian Authority did declare that they no longer wish to destroy Israel and are ready to live with a two state solution.
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BTW, quick spelling reference, Israel is spelled with an ael, not eal.
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What is wrong with Israel??

Don't the Israelis know that they are supposed to sit back and do nothing when six thousand rockets are launched against their schools, homes, hospitals, supermarkets, cities and towns?

Don't the Israelis know that when Hamas sends suicide bombers onto Israeli busses, into Israeli shopping malls and restaurants and supermarkets that the Israeli men, women, and children that are being blown to pieces should die without protest from the Israeli government and people?

How dare Israel have the nerve to want to protects its citizens from terrorists bent on its destruction?

By the rationale posted by some commentators on this website if you strike back at terrorists hell bent on your destruction, people who celebrate the death of every Israeli child they murder, then by striking back at the terrorists you are guilty of human rights violations. Let these fools move to Sderot and Ashkelon and endure the daily rocket attacks on THEIR families and see how they respond. These same leftists criticize Israel for protecting its citizens and blame America for 911. I guess Hitler and Stalin could be excused as well for the millions they killed. After all, Britain and America destroyed, not bombed, but destroyed entire cities in WWII. The left always blames the victims of terror and never the perpetrators.

Thanks Joe.

What I like best is that you acknowledge the Palestinians have a historically legitimate beef. The land was theirs. In addressing jacobblues historical perspective, Jews, even small numbers had lived in Palestine. The problem for the Arabs was the influx of Jews from Europe, whom Muslims viewed as the latest Crusaders. As far as exterminating the Jews, the Zionists and the Hashemites agreed to split up Palestine with the Hashemites getting the West Bank. How do you explain Israel's narrow neck in 1948. 10 miles wide? Do you really think the Arabs could not have cut Israel in two?

Hamas is not the Nazis. They are fighting for their land. I agree with Joe that I don't approve of most of their methods, but it seems strange to me that some immigrant from Russia has more claim than a person born in a town which he or she left in 1948 in war.

Were Jews ran out of Arab countries. Of course, with the help of Zionists who were looking to increase the Jewish population in Palestine. Do the Arabs really care about the Palestinians? Of course not, because they view each other with more suspicion than they do Israel.

Even the current situation is made worse between Fatah and Hamas who have killed more of each other in the past 3 years than Israelis.

@mjkock - ok let me guess your history book only covers the highlights, WWII, the creation of Israel, and alot of events since that involve muslims as fanatic terrorists, right?

Hey, guess, history isn't so finite. Can anyone agree with Hamas, no, but guess what, Israel isn't doing itself any favors through this aggression. None. It wants to think it will in a traditional war - it can't look. Look at that bang up job with Hezbollah. Why don't you pick up a couple of big books on world history, and then you can join the rest of the class.

let's get real and stop the israeli biased comments.
1.) this was no accident. the UN has given the israelis the locations to all of its schools and hospitals in gaza. they knew exactly what they were doing. we americans have given them billions of our tax dollars and sophisticated weapons, u mean to tell me that they aren't able to use all that to get a better idea of where the civilians are and where the militants are?? that's nonsense
2.) the silence of president obama shows that he will be different when it comes to the mideast policies. we will continue to support israel no matter how much they kill. he was so "presidential" in commenting aganist the russians and the mumbai attacks, yet now he wants to use the quiet treatment.
3.) its funny how the number of rockets "fired" by hamas seems to jump everyday, now i'm hearing 6000 rockets. well where is the damage?, where are the hundereds of people killed? where is the destruction? 6000 rockets is a pretty high amount and yet no proof of it. and lets not pretend that this conflict just started over some firecrackers, israel is the new nazis, but oppressing an entire population into camps and are seeking wiping out an entire civilization.
4.)typical of the israelis to exploit the holocaust as an excuse to commit a holocaust of their own. news flash! the holocaust was in germany and carried out by germans. go over and there and take it up with them. israel will continue to kill and destory over what? some campfire story about some land they had in their dreams?? get real.
5.) WW2 happended because the world came to the defense of the jews. well WW3 will happen because of the jews.

[...] respect Joe Klein’s take on foreign affairs, and it seems like he’s beginning to see some of the negatives of invasion more clearly, but I have to say this some pretty poor reasoning. As Swampland readers [...]

syedh03
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You actually make a point against yourself in #2. Ask yourself why Obama came out so forcefully with the situation in Mumbai where he was in lockstep with Bush but has remained quiet this time. Mind you I am not saying I am putting it past Obama to continue our country's ignorant support for Israel no matter what the situation. I am just saying that the point you made should make one think he is leaning more the other way than that he fully endorses Bush's policy. If he said the same thing as Bush what would be the worry of not speaking with one voice?

Bah, that's what I get for being over-reliant on spellcheck. Israel. Thanks.
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The 1948 invasion happened because, as fhm says, a whole bunch of people from Europe and Russia all of a sudden showed up and said, "Hey, this is our country now." If the Irish had done it, I'm pretty sure the invading armies would have been yelling "Kill all the Irish!", not "Kill all the Jews!" It's not like Americans weren't yelling "Kill all the Japs/Krauts!" during WWII.
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Pre-conditions are a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. You negotiate with people because you disagree with them. You don't make agreeing with you a pre-requisite to negotiating. It's something you learn is a waste of time in kindergarten. Hamas IS the democratically elected government of the Palestinian territories. America really, really needs to quit deciding to ignore democratic results it doesn't like. The PLO under Arafat was nothing but a bunch of gangsters, thugs, and criminals. Fatah, the PLO's successor, is pretty much the same thing. The Palestinians hate Fatah because, like the PLO, it does crap all for governing or providing services and does do a lot for lining its members' pockets.
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Yes, the other Arab states treat the Palestinians horribly. They also treat their own citizens horribly. There's so much hate and bile in the Middle East because everybody there hates their government. Regime change in Arabia (Saudi Arabia since the House of Saud managed to buy the country a name change with a big bribe of oil) is the only thing that will change this. Or at least start to.
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If you go off of historical rights and wrongs from a purely moral perspective the people in the middle east we should be supporting the most are, roughly in order:
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1. The Kurds
2. The Palestinians
3. The Persians
4. The Shia
5. The Sunnis
6. The Jews
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I think it's both funny and depressing that our support for governments and organizations in the region runs in almost 100% the opposite direction.

I, as an American citizen, DO NOT WANT MY TAX DOLLARS GOING TO ISRAEL. I do not want to be responsible for financially supporting those genocidal maniacs.

mjkoch:
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"Let these fools move to Sderot and Ashkelon and endure the daily rocket attacks on THEIR families and see how they respond."
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Better yet, let's let you be magically airdropped into Gaza city.
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One thing you'll find, numbskull, is that you as Gaza's newest inmate, will not be able to leave. Something those in any of the southern Israeli towns can do!

mjkoch- I have been critical of Israel but please don't mistake that for support of Hamas. No one denies Israel's right to defend herself (which she is quite capable of), yet many deny Palestinians that right. If you agree that Israel should not have to "sit back" and tolerate attacks on her people, then how can you justify the Israeli blockade? -breaking the ceasefire agreement and denying sufficient food, medicine, fuel, water and electricity to the people of Gaza. Who should defend the starving children?
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Neither party has "clean hands", both have reasons for contempt. So how do we effect healing?
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The US has real value as a peace-broker. However, we will not realize this unless we show ourselves to be fair. We are not. Our government (rep and dem) presents a myopic view of the conflict; a view that dominates MSM. Please read my link ("accidents" at 2:31). It is shameful that the US has not condemned the Israeli offensive, demanded it stop immediately and threatened to pull all financial aid if it does not. We are quite ready to condemn deplorable acts by Hamas, or any Muslim nation, yet blind to atrocities from Israel or ourselves. This dishonesty leads to support for "freedom fighters" like bin Laden fighting Russian aggression and "moderate secular leaders" like Saddam Hussein fighting Islamic fundamentalism.
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I blame Israel and the US when we make poor decisions. Israel's blockade and incursion into Gaza makes matters worse and causes unnecessary bloodshed. They are killing with weapons we paid for. While it doesn't justify their terror tactics, Hamas' cause has been strengthened, the Israeli people are less safe and the region is less stable. Our invasion of Iraq has strengthened al Qaeda's cause and further radicalized the Middle East. And the waste of life and treasure is sickening. We do not face an existential threat from al Qaeda (nor Iran); Israel does not face the same from Hamas (nor Iran). Unless that changes, honest diplomacy is the only way to end these conflicts. Our actions are counter-productive and amount to little more than the slaughter of innocents.
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Retaliation and Defense are not the same; the former gives cold-comfort and leads to escalation, only the later is acceptable and just.
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Please read the Glenn Greenwald link from sgw 1:51; he is more eloquent and persuasive than I am.

mjkoch:
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You are just one of those slimy neocons.
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Didn't anybody tell you that their day is done?
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Go hug Sarah Palin...

Oh, and mjkoch, between the Iraqi people and the American people- who are the victims and the perpetrators of terror?

mjkoch, you know this is a very uncertain time for all of us, people will be looking for scapegoats for a lot of things. Sound familiar? Israel does itself and the Jewish diaspora no favors by the wanton killing of children for the world to see. I've seen more and more people willing to call Israel out and I think that Holocaust free pass you've been depending on for a while now is toast.

Well, Joe, at least you are learning that the long arm of the pro-Israel politicos and pundits, not to mention the trolls, are quite indiscriminate and incredibly intolerant.
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I'm not a HAMAS supporter by any means, but I am a very vocal critic of Israel's policies, and their government, which seems to have self pupulated with some of the most rabid and frankly, racist, individuals on the planet.
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I am sorry.
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I cannot stand an entity in the business of imprisoning 4,000,000 people, routinely stealing land, and visiting misery on it's own internal populace of Israeli Arabs.
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I just cannot lend anyone like that my support...

Joe, it is time for Israel to give up Gaza and the West Bank.
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All of it!

"Don't the Israelis know that they are supposed to sit back and do nothing when six thousand rockets are launched against their schools, homes, hospitals, supermarkets, cities and towns."
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Better then that, mjkoch, perhaps they would not have been on the recieving end of those rockets if Isreal were to get out of the business of managing open-air prisons.
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It really sucks, doesn't it, when the inmates have the capability to hurt their captors?

[...] Klein astutely notes that the President-elect speaks when he agrees with the current President, but remains silent when [...]

Joe,

Methinks you contradict yourself between this post and the last. If counterinsurgency is the new watchword in Iraq

 
Joe,
 
Methinks you contradict yourself between this post and the last. If counterinsurgency is the new watchword in Iraq and Afghanistan, then what about here? Rocket being launched at you, what do you do?
 
Even if Hamas is despicable, and even if Sadr's men are despicable, do we not negotiate as a practical move?
 
I'm sure I'm being silly, somehow...
 

Actually Sean, the 1948 war occurred after the Arab states rejected the UN partition plan that left the Jews with a sliver of the former territory promised by the British mandate. To them, the idea of Jewish sovreignty was what rankled. The idea that only Jews are forbidden from either migrating, and/or forming their own sovreign state hardly is reason to declare their deaths.
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The difference between the Jews showing up and the Irish, is that Jews are native to Israel. It's where we came from. It's where our history is, our foundation, our people.
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Pre-conditions aren't the issue with HAMAS. It's their entire philosophy. The argument against their participation is that they reject what the Palestinian Authority has already agreed to. Inter-state negotiations don't work that way. So if HAMAS is now the leading party in the Palestinian Authority, then they need to adhere to those agreements. HAMAS' political charter automatically rejects that.
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One more point of reference, you can use Fatah interchangably with the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) since Fatah, which was Arafat's party, has long been the core that group.
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I'll pass on a discussion of regime change in Saudia Arabia. Our record on regime change isn't so hot to begin with that pushing such a move on the Saudi's seems a bit off the charts here.
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That said, yes, the Palestinians have been treated horribly by the various Arab states. In fact, they've been used as pawns for decades now, and a means to foist off local discontent against the local rulers.
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An interesting list that you've put together for support especially given that the Kurds have been treated even worse by the Arab world.
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That said though, the issue in Gaza is not a question of supporting the Palestinians or not, but confronting HAMAS and its violent and rejectionist policies. You may support the Kurds, but do you support the PKK as well? Are you ready to take on Turkey for that support too?
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Jacob,
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The Jewish population in Palestine exploded from the late 1800s through the 1940s and the formation of Israel. This wasn't due to a high birth rate, but to an extremely high immigration rate with three distinct periods of even more heightened immigration. After the formation of Israel even more people of Jewish descent migrated there. I don't really see how that's "always being there".
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And if you do want to make the "always been there" argument, how do you justify the ethnic cleansing that took place throughout the country, and especially in Jerusalem, during the war in the '40s? There's a reason the big sticking point in any peace settlement is called "right of return". Everybody who lived in Israel/Palestine before the war wants to come back and the government won't allow them to because it would dilute the "Jewishness" of the state to an unacceptable degree.
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In that sense, it was exactly like an invasion by Irish migrants. Or by any group largely comprised of a single foreign ethnicity that in this case just happened to have some members living there already.
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Preconditions are the heart of the problem with Hamas. When Hamas won the election Israel and America both immediately refused to recognize the legally elected government and cut off funding and aid to it. The siege of Gaza was intensified. There was never a chance given for Hamas to repudiate or stick by the Fatah/PLO agreements. Only an ultimatum to do so "or else". It's entirely possible that the Hamas government may have rejected such previously signed agreements and accords all on their own without a provocative push. But it's also possible that the non-military parts of the organization, which are far, far larger (and more popular) than the military part, would have overruled the fighters on this if a less aggressive tone had been taken.
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On the topic of the Kurds, yeah, I'd be willing to support the goals of the PKK, if not the methodology. And yes, I'd be willing to take on Turkey to do so.
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Look, almost all of America and the West's problems with the developing world are tribal conflicts leftover from the days of colonialism by the British and French. Latecomers to that game, such as the U.S., Russia, and Japan have also created significant problems. Until we start treating all of these groups and peoples as legitimate entities in their own right, entities that DO have rights and aren't just tools of convenience for us to use and discard, or to crap on in favor of the "good" subgroup, we're just going to keep creating new problems that will come back to bite us in 20 or 30 years. I'm willing to take the pain now to stop that happening. Most aren't. Especially not most politicians.

Let's put things into perspective regarding Hamas and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of comparing it to the Nazis and the likelihood they would have recognized Israel if a "less aggressive tone had been taken." From their official charter:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

I hardly think you can describe anything that Israel is doing in Gaza as 'accidental' Mr Klein...

I find Israeli complaints at the rocket attacks on them to be somewhat hollow. Hamas is operating from the most densely populated place on the planet. It's only the most densely populated because the Israelis have made it so. Where else are they supposed to strike from? Hamas have no choice about where they operate from, because the Israelis won't let anyone leave. If the Israelis really cared about civilian casualties as much as they pretend, they would open the border and let the women and children out. Mr Klein mentions Khalid Meshaal in his article, someone who occasionally appears in interviews in the UK (where I am). I seem to recall Mr Meshaal on one occasion responding to the charge that Hamas simply fires their rockets as an indiscriminate terror tactic by pointing out that the only reason Hamas (and the rest) use these rockets is because that is all they have, and if someone would like to provide them with F16s and tanks they would be more than happy to use them against the Israeli occupation instead.

Israel is run largely, but not exclusively, by ex-generals who are considered 'war heroes' (half of whom are too scared to travel to Europe in case they get charged with war crimes). These people know that ultimately there is no chance of peace with the Palestinians until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and dismantle a large number of illegal settlements. They find this so unpallatable that it is preferable to them to maintain the occupation by carrying the conflict with Hamas et al for as long as possible.

I suppose that we can only hope that Mr Obama will take middle east peace a little more seriously that Mr Bush, but his pronouncements on the subject so far don't really inspire much confidence.