Yet Again With the Nazis

Very bad, if inevitable, news from Gaza today: the Israelis accidently hit a UN school, killing at least 30 children.

Inevitable or accidental? It really can't be both, Joe. It may seem like it, but it can't. Think harder.

I do believe the peace process is severely hampered by the unwillingness of the United States (and the E.U.) to talk directly with the democratically elected Hamas leadership.

Fixed your typo, Joe.

Wouldn't Israel's ongoing naval blockade constitute a beef too? It's an act of war, after all.

You speak of a 'moral' victory and it's easy to understate how important that is. I'm reminded of the priniples of non-violent resistance and the amazing things that a well placed sense of outrage can accomplish. Not that I would suggest that Hamas is in any danger of renouncing violence, but the David/Goliath story-line remains a compelling one. Isreal would do well to remeber to count the enemies in is creating in addition to those it is eliminating.

So I have a serious question. If Gaza has been under military siege, what is their legitimate miliary response? Is there one?
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For example, suicide bombings clearly target civilians and should be condemned. Rocket attacks are indiscriminate and do kill civilians, but then so do air strikes.
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I'm not taking Hamas' side here, or denying that Israel has a right to defend itself militarily. I guess what I don't understand is, are the rocket attacks condemned (a) because in principle the Palestinians are not legitimate combatants, or (b) as a tactic in violation of the rules of war?

"Even a unilateral one would have the effect of demonstrating Hamas's instransigence--and those who condemn Israel for its disproportionality in Gaza tend to be disproportionate themselves, ignoring the thousands of rockets Hamas has lobbed into Israel over the past 3 years."
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If you mean it is either Hamas or Gazans in general who are "those who condemn Israel for its disproportionality in Gaza" (nicely constructed sentence, BTW) you've pretty much lost your mind. It's the Lukidniks here and in Isreal versus pretty much the whole rest of the world, just as it has been for generations. Furthermore, it's not about the ordinance - if I lob thousands of spitballs at my classmate it doesn't justify him pulling a .357 and blowing me away.
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Let me spell it out for you - if Israel is doing all the killing, it's not "self-defense". The fact that they are killing innocent women and children by the dozen makes it a clear cut war crime.

JK:
" .. the Israelis accidently hit .. "
"accident"
Israel can do no wrong.
It was an accident! Get over it!
My, Oh My! You really try hard, Joe Klein.

Would you consider the shelling in Israel accidental too?

It reminds one of Rumsfeld's assertion that civilian deaths - which account for more than 90% of the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan - are mere 'collateral damage'.

It was an accident! Get over it!

Could it be that Hitler and Pol Pot 'accidentally' did many things we blame them for?

We do the 'accidents' - they do it with malicious intention - born of "hateful ideology".

But I blog not to malign Joe Klein - for he is an honorable reporter, among the best of the "free and fair" US media, the envy of the world.

Do we wish that there was an African-American here talking for, or carrying the flag for, Zimbabwe? [Maybe then, there would be no economic sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe and the US taxpayer would send over $2000 to every Zimbabweans each year to just sit around, thumb their noses at USA and hatch fresh mischief. But first, they must cultivate a credible enemy ... ]

I like how the US is all in favor of democracies, except when the people elect someone that we don't like. The Bush administration has done nothing to help the peace process in the Middle East. Israel needs to give the Palestinians the land that was promised to them, stop building settlements in the disputed territories, and open up all of the border crossings.
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Israel, by launching missiles into populated cities and killing innocent civilians and "accidentally" hitting schools and killing children could be considered terrorist acts or war crimes. I do not support suicide bombers, but Israel has killed far more innocent people.

Jayackroyd Says: :
" .. the democratically elected Hamas leadership.
Fixed your typo, Joe."

This is an outrage!
You are claiming that we, who spearhead the spread of democracy all over the world, would stand by or applaud as a country with a democratically elected government is invaded and kids slaughtered - with the complements of the US taxpayer and US-made weapons!

And that the (essentially USA's) UN stands by silent, gloating!

Fixed your typo, Jay!

I don't quite follow some of the criticism of JK. One can't seriously contend that Israel intentionally hit a U.N. School, intentionally killed these children -- or, rather, if you seriously contend that, I guess it's better to say you've lost me (& perhaps others) in making your argument. It's clear that it WAS an accident. And I think it's also fairly clear that it was an inevitable accident. An accident of the type that Israel knew was bound to happen if it embarked on its course of destruction/war.

Spot on, lynnanne. It was an "accident" waiting for Israel to make happen.

lynnanne Says:
" .. It's clear that it WAS an accident. .."

Oops! It is clear that everything happens by accident.

Well. Maybe not so funny: There is that principle of uncertainty - big uncertainty.

And then there are those Murphy's laws.

But we tout ours as precision weapons. Accidents in targeting are not possible. But we can allow the other side a larger circle of uncertainty in its targeting. And we may understand that houses in Israel are hit 'accidentally' by the other side's inaccurate crude weaopns.

If we want to be credible while hiding behind the word "accidentally" when we unleash horrid crimes then we must admit that the other side also does horrible things accidentally. Which we are not willing to. Duplicity. Evil.

"I like how the US is all in favor of democracies, except when the people elect someone that we don't like."
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That's been par for the course for some time...Iran, South America, Greece.
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An oppressed people fighting tyranny have the right to use any means to achieve what they cannot through political means. Our government's knee jerk support of Israel and our refusal to see both sides of the situation, despite the desire of the US population to do just that, is THE reason we were hit on 9/11 and are in a 'war on terror'. Remember, you must be willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING, you life, the lives of your loved ones, your peace of mind and the future of your and yours....all of it for Israel.

This is a problem that has no solution. None. The history of the Palestinian and Isreali people is a shared one. They are both semetic people. The whole question of a Palestinian state co-exsting with an Isreali one hinges on property rights. Let's face it, this is a family fight over property. No outsider can understand it and both sides refuse to listen to the other.

"Accidentally hit"? No Joe, Isreal meant to hit that target. They didn't mean for it to turn out to be a school and they didn't mean for lots of collateral deaths to occur. But they did mean to hit that area.
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Stuff like this is why the U.S. has largely shut down artillery ops in Baghdad and other cities in Iraq. Just way, way, way too much additional damage. You only use artillery in a city if you're planning on leveling the whole place. This was a mistake on a lot of levels, but it wasn't an accident.

cincinnatus est exterminata! Says:

" ... Our government's knee jerk support of Israel and our refusal to see both sides of the situation, despite the desire of the US population to do just that, .."

REPENT!
Are you suggesting that government is composed of rabid apologists for Israel? Or that ours is not a government by the people and of the people?

SINNER!

Yall have GOT to go to greenwald's blog today and click on the transcript of his appearance on Hugh Hewitt's show. Dude it just about gave me wood, seriously. If only we had mainstream journalists with the courage to speak the truth that Greenwald has. Hewitt didn't know what to do with himself. He of course played the Nazi/Hitler card also but Greenwald smashed that meme to oblivion.
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/06/hewitt/index.html

Actually, I'm feeling emboldend c-fuk: I believe a very small minority has a disproportionate influence on our foreign policy. I believe that small, influential minority often has the interest of the US as secondary to the interests of Israel. I believe that people of this country who are not part of this small, influential minority have suffered mightily because of it.

A few thoughts come to mind after reading Joe's column and the subsequent comments.
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First, the Nazi comparison. If one is doing the comparison of HAMAS to the Nazi's, then you have a reasonable argument. HAMAS core philosophy is that of violent jihad (their own words). Included in this jihad is the idea that HAMAS cannot rest until the Jews are killed and removed from all of Palestine. Jihad is not just the way, but the only way (again, HAMAS own words) and martyrdom a positive outcome on the way to ultimate victory.
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While this philosophy may not resonate with the entire Palestinian electorate, even those who voted HAMAS into power, thats what they got. HAMAS is not shy about what its ultimate goals are, from its leadership on down. Remember, this is a group who's leadership included Sheik Nizar Rayan, a man who sent his own son out as a suicide bomber to kill Israeli civilians.
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Given HAMAS core ideals and declared methodology, its entirely understandable as to why the US government would reject such an organization, even if it was put into power through a legitimate election.
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As for the inevitability of civilian deaths, its part of HAMAS own strategy and tactics. When a guerrilla army sets up its operations in the middle of dense urban population centers, then its inevitable that civilians are going to get hit in the cross fire.

...and every civilian's family who is killed is completely justified in any violent act against the state of Israel. Completely justified.

Once again last night Jon Stewart got the situation regarding US politicians and pundits exactly right.
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=213380&title=strip-maul

Jacob,
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Hamas isn't the Nazi's. Not even close. National Socialism was a political system and ideology that significantly appropriated and altered ideas from social darwinism and eugenics. The Nazi's wanted to kill all the Jews and Roma (and eventually EVERYONE who wasn't Aryan enough) in order to "fix" the human race.
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Hamas has a problem with the Jews in Isreal because they ethnically cleansed the majority of arabs and palestinians out of the country and into refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It's not even close to the same thing.
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[I realize you don't make the following specific point, but the tone of your post implies it.] I've always thought it the height of ignorance for people to argue "You can't negotiate with Hamas/PLO because their maps don't even include Isreal!" You know where they got that idea from? The Zionist terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters who bombed hotels and whatnot before 1947, who didn't have Palestine on their maps. See for further historical reference Washington, George and his lack of a map for the future American Colonies of Great Britain.
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Also, it turns out you CAN negotiate with them, as evidenced by the several years of treaties and temporary leadership of the WB/GS by the PLO.

"If only we had mainstream journalists with the courage to speak the truth that Greenwald has. Hewitt didn't know what to do with himself. He of course played the Nazi/Hitler card also but Greenwald smashed that meme to oblivion."
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Apparently Hewitt didn't realize that the entire system of public discourse is designed specifically to prevent a fair debate between a "conservative" and a real liberal and that there's a very good reason why.

Lots of accidents happening...
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Israel has been very deliberate in choosing their targets. The school was targeted due to claims that mortar shells were fired from there at Israeli forces (no troop causalities claimed).

Thank you for this post, Joe Klein.
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You've been remarkable lately for your ability to overcome current institutional pressures that seem to tend to suppress decent analysis.