It Won't Be Short...?

OK.
You redeem yourself JK. But poorly.

Gaza, then what Iran before January 20th. They've got to get their punches in before the adults regain control of American foreign policy. Another wonderful "No Win" operation by the Israeli government.

When does it end....... "NEVER!"

If we didn't need middle east oil so badly we could tell them all to go F themselves and treat them like the Congo. But then again ther'd be some damn jounralist photographer taking pictures of some bloody child and we'd be all screaming, "Do something!"

But I guess violence or hunger becomes the norm when that is all you know. The great commedian Sam Kinison used to have a bit about the starving children in Ethipia or somewhere else in Africa, saying don't send them food, give them suitcases so they can move to where the food is. Same thing applies to Palestine, don't send them aid, just help them all move to where the peace is.

"What's so funny about peace, love and understanding.", Elvis Costello

What is the score now? 400 - 4 still? I became a non-supporter for the blitz krieg tactic after the first child was murdered. With all of the technology available, there isn't a better way to neutralize the rockets? I guess that superb intelligence can't pinpoint the location of rockets. At least we know the rockets exist, unlike the WMDs of Iraq that the neocons only claimed to have existed before the preemptive strike.

"Once again, Israel's national security benefit will be severely mitigated if the impression begins to grow that it hasn't been able to "wipe out" or "defeat" Hamas."
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Or if the impression continues to grow that this is disproportionate. sgwhite: There are increasing members of the MSM who are pointing out, through stories or statistics, the burden on the Palestinians: Tom Aspell, Nic Robertson, Christiane Amanpour, among others.

Has Gallup or anyone else done a poll of US public opinion on Israel's actions in Gaza? (We all know what the results of such a poll would be elsewhere.)

Nic Robertson is reporting that Israel is afraid that Hezbollah may support Hamas with strikes against Israel (and hence Israel is calling up so many reservists). Great. Now Israel is going to unite Hezbollah and Hamas.

But kathy, this is good news for our economy. Isreal has to spend all of the foreign aid we send, the most of anywhere in the world. They spend much of it on good ol' Merican munitions. Bring 'em on, by god.

formerly: sigh.
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Rose:
If you go to Gallup.com there are a variety of polls relating to the Middle East, but it doesn't look like there's anything since November 26, so they haven't polled this specifically. This discussion looks interesting (but I don't have audio so I can't listen):
http://www.gallup.com/video/112402/Analyst-Insights-Mideast-Peace-Policy.aspx

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/02/israel/index.html
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poll

"If we didn't need middle east oil so badly we could tell them all to go F themselves and treat them like the Congo."
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"The majority of Americans want the US to play an active, but not a domineering, role in the Middle East peace process. A very strong majority of Americans wants the US to play an even-handed role in this process, but a majority feels that in fact the US favors Israel. This support for an even-handed approach extends to the idea of equalizing the level of aid between Israeli and the Palestinians in the event of a peace agreement, and a slight majority favors the idea of the parties sharing Jerusalem as an international city."
http://www.americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/USrole.cfm
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http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pt91YAfH5tAJ:www.americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/USrole.cfm+poll+israel+even+handed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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I don't think it's the oil.

I will make one last explosive argument before I head out the back door. The establishment of Isreal is the problem, and it won't go away. The Palestinians are the 2nd great victim of the holocaust, because that gave impetus to the zionist cause. Further impetus came from the failure to provide for the Jewish population in Europe after WWII. They should have been settled in their home countries, their financial losses, dignity, and roots restored. That didn't happen, and we are still dealing with it. Again, I point to stupid foreign policy. Discuss or cuss as you may.

It's the confluence of neocon and fundie foreign policy goals.

posted this on the other thread
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http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-report-131207

Kathy and SG, thanks for the data.
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formerlyjames, a Jewish state was and still is needed.

You know, all of this begs the question of why the Israelis persist in their "do as we say or we'll destroy you" approach to any solutions to their security problems.
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After 40 years of not finding peace that way, perhaps they really need to look themselves in the mirror and ask:
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Is this really going to work?
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If Israel is ever going to get peace, then perhaps they should be willing to give peace...

rose, why, exactly, is a Jewish state needed? To hark back 2000 years? Before the zionists, before Isreal, Jews had migrated and established communities throughout the world and most still exist in their own unique way. Why Isreal? For a head office or something? Rose, I suspect you will respond with a religious argument. Not being religious I will have no patience with it. I respect the Jewish culture, as I do all culture, but I respect no religion especally, other than for the hope that they don't kill each other in the name of god.

" hope that Israel is working as hard behind the scenes to arrange a quick cease fire as it is fighting on the ground. It would be nice if we had a President of the United States with the credibility and ingenuity to make it happen. Perhaps we soon will."
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I think that Israel has no intention of lifting the blockade. I think they will only demand an end to the rockets.
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Everyone should remember that, since the blockade was imposed, the Gazans have nothing to lose by fighting. Death? They've already seen death. Peace? They run a far higher risk than the people of Sderot and Ashkelon do of dying in a rocket (or other) attack. Jobs? They havn't had any for a while. Money? That's choked off, too.
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When you consider that Israel has done this, all because of Hamas's charter and thier dislike for Hamas in general, why wouldn't Gazans fight?
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Israel is going to get mired there...

"formerlyjames, a Jewish state was and still is needed."
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I think Israel should continue to exist. They only reason they are mired in conflict with the Palestinians is that they have paid too much attention to the political wishes of the "settler" movement.
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There are some raging racists in that group, and ethnic cleansing that includes death isn't something they are shy about advocating.
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If they were to clamp down on them, and pull out the "settlements"*, I think they would get peace.
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After all, the entire Arab world is backing the Saudi plan, which calls fo just that in exchange for blanket recognition and trade.
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Now what could be better than that? Another 40 years of war?

Here is my question, how can they tell who is Hamas and who isn't in Gaza strip? At least with al qaeda in Iraq you could look for militants who were foreigners who came there just to fight. But these are people actually living in the Gaza strip their whole lives. Let alone the ones who are converting every single day because Israel's over reaction. I really want to know how this doesn't turn out horribly. There is no Hamas club house or costume.

53_3, the existance of Isreal is an empty debate, because as I mentioned earlier, it won't go away any time soon. I agree with your summations of the desparation of the Palestinians, they are at the end of the rope and will fight like hell to survive as all animals, including humans, are wont to do. I agree with part of your last post about the zealot settlers. But in the end, Palestinian land, resources, dignity, very question of existance is challenged by Isreal. That will continue, until hell freezes over.

sg:
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Here is a link from BBC that questions the film that the IDF put up on U Tube:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm
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It provides a very good argument against Israel's ability to distinguish civilian from Hamas...

"I agree with part of your last post about the zealot settlers. But in the end, Palestinian land, resources, dignity, very question of existance is challenged by Isreal. That will continue, until hell freezes over."
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I think that the age of cheap rocketry has changed all of this, formerlyjames.
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Israel is not large enough to support an army that could hold enough ground to keep them secure from rockets being fired from outside their reach.
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This means that eventually, they must find a way to achieve peace, because if they don't, any number of foes will be able to lob rockets their way with relative impunity.
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A foretaste of the direness of this situation was their conflict with Hizb Allah.
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They claim they lost because the war was "handled badly". Not so.
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They lost it because they are not equipped to fight an elusive enemy that does not need to hold ground to fire rockets.
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And as time goes on, the rockets will only increase in range, power, accuracy, and detectability...

http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/03/gaza-update-nowhere-to-hide/

53_3, point well taken, especially the elusive enemy part. Echos of VietNam, Che, and guerrila movements everywhere. I don't mean to focus of communist wars, just sayin...Theology, ideology, it's all the same when the blood flows.

You know, I used to think that Israel was a beacon of hope and morality following the hell the Jews went through in the Holocaust.
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I even forgive the tactics used during their founding wars and can accept them for who they are and why they want to provide a homeland for anyone of Jewish faith.
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What bothers me intensly though is their penchant for satisfying the needs of the "settler" movement has drawn them far from that ideal. So far, in fact, that to me, they are nothing but prison wardens trying to keep the inmates in the two largest open-air prisons from rioting.
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This is a very ugly and reprehensable turn. The Palestinians fight for their homes, which are routinely taken along with their land, and Israelis still complain about Palestinians who have the temerity to disturb their peace.
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This is totally wrong. The pundits have espoused complexity over empathy, and myopy over knowledge.
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I don't favor Hamas, even. One of them would probably be as quick to shoot me as anyone else, but I do see that Hamas and the terrorism problem in general is a byproduct of Israel's unwillingness to reign in their own "settlers".
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I just cannot bring myself to respect any entity that has made a career out of imprisoning 4,000,000 people...