The Myth of the Decisive Blow

Happy New Year, Joe. Perhaps in the new year you can please comment on the fact the political views about peace with the Palestinians are not monolitic and that Israel is based on being a secular society.
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I appreciate your posts on the middle east. Thanks for keeping this issue in perspective.

In addition to the unilateral cease fire, Israel should announce concrete action to increase the flow of non-military supplies into the region. I have no idea what is true and what is not, but the conventional wisdom that the blockade is causing starvation and suffering is troubling. Fix it, and publicly. Then, call for a permanent end to missile fires with clean(er) hands.

Knowing Hamas will not stop the missile attacks on Israel (because they have no end objective other than to kill as many Jews as possible) why not finish the assault until current Hamas capability is taken out? (I say current, since we all know that Iran will continue to supply Hamas with all the weapons they want.) Why not take out the leadership? Why not take out all the military caches?
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As long as the other ally Arab leadership are willing, take out as much of Hamas as possible. Why not?

I bet that blockade was getting intolerable as well. Too bad Israel decided to say no to ending it in exchange for another ceasefire.

As I've said before, I don't feel fully qualified to speak of such things because the 'calculus' people use to gauge acts of war include infinite values. But if nothing else, one should always consider the possibility that you're creating enemies faster than your eliminating them. Many acts of war fail this test and as always, the most enthusiastic proponents of the maximum amount of force can only be described as delusional.

What Paul said.
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And. If Israel really wants to go down this road, do it wholesale. If you want to really cruch Hamas, you will have to crush the spirit of the people. They will essentially have to do to the Palestinians what Hitler nearly did to them. It will end the conflict, but at what cost.
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For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul.

Good post, esp. on the US role. Someone, I think Josh Marshall, said the US should push Israel to do necessary, difficult things-- ie, disband unlawful settlements.
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Also, I think that Israel is at some risk of losing, in the eyes of influential, favorably inclined Americans, its "Good" status. Of course Israel can strike against Hamas... but 300 deaths, many of civilians, after about5 Israelis?

what pourme said.
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and Paul's "if nothing else, one should always consider the possibility that you're creating enemies faster than you're eliminating them."
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Very disheartening that Israel doesn't understand the strategic importance of the sympathy they could gain if they ceased fire and brought and food and medical supplies in. They've never been particularly interested in what the world thinks, and therefore they've never gotten suckered into voluntarily disadvantaging themselves. But they've missed opportunities, too.

Joe, I agree that ending the assault now is the best next step, but "Hamas was asking for it"? The scores of civilians killed or injured haven't asked for it. By your reasoning Israel's inhumane blockade constitutes "asking for it". Isn't that a violation of the ceasefire? And what of the aggressive settlement of disputed areas? My understanding is that Hamas has significantly curtailed missile attacks. It may well be impossible for Hamas to eliminate all attacks as some are perpetrated by rogue actors (foreigners, civilians).
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Hamas is culpable for the atrocities they committed. So too is Israel. So too is the US for funding Israeli armed forces and providing the very weapons used in the attacks- and don't think that the "rest of the world" doesn't see this.
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If we are to broker peace, the US must be a neutral actor. We are not. Your premise is hypocritical. It renders this: "The Bush Administration... sided too often and without question with Israeli military overreactions and foolish strategies... It thereby relinquished what should be the U.S. government's natural role, as an interlocutor trusted by both sides" as a meaningless statement.
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You justifiably criticize the Bush administration for blindly siding with Israel. But who in Congress has taken Israel to task for these "foolish strategies"? How about in the Media? Joe, don't fall into that trap.

Elvis says: "...but 300 deaths, many of civilians, after about 5 Israelis?"
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Is it really 5 Israelis? You aren't counting the suicide bombings, the constant state of attack with missiles incoming.
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And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.
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What I find interesting is how tepid has been the response by the Palestinian Authority from the West Bank. It reflects the fracture within the Palestinian leadership, which does not view Hamas favorably. And the surrounding Arab countries see the assault for what it is -- deserved retaliation against Hamas -- and have stayed out of it. So why not take the opportunity to do as much as possible?

Of course, the problem with Isrealis rushing in aid is that some d@mned fool, Fatah or Hamas or just plain tickecd off because an Israeli air strike killed one of his relatives last weekend, will start shooting at the Israeli aid workers, and that's the end of the aid.

Like bryanfromhouston, I'm afraid that the "crush Gaza utterly" final solution will end up in play.

Such a slaughter would be very convenient for Fatah (whou would love to see Hamas wiped out), Mubarak (who wants a mess like Gaza on ihis northern border?), the Saudi royal family (who is reputed to have given Israel a hush-hush gren light to go into Gaza), the Bush administration (what's left of it) and even possibly for the Ayatollahs and their Iraqi friends (who can always make political use of distant martyrs to divert attention from their own inadequacies).

All of them would stand to gain something from the mass shedding of Gazan blood.

Well, it's true that while the Hamas/Fatah divide exists, there is no single authority representing the Palestinians that can make a deal for the whole population. How do you conduct diplomacy when you know from the get that it won't be honored by some part of the opposition?

(N)othing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.
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It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. . . .
-George Washington in his 1796 Farewell Address.
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Via Glenn Greenwald. The entire article is a worthy read.

nibblybits:And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.

Are you saying that you endorse Israel escalating its ongoing violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions from withholding supplies necessary to survival (which it has been doing off and on since 2007) to its present active and violent collective punishment of non-combatants for the actions of combatatants who may live among them?

Joe Klein says
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I agree with that, too. Hamas was asking for it.
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Yeah Joe Klein. The people who were being starved out by the Israelis were asking for it. I mean who doesn't want to have to eat grass to survive because they are blockaded in. Oh and next time try getting your facts straight ass hole, Israel broke the ceasefire by bombing tunnels in the Gaza strip. No wonder the great Joe Klein waited damn near a week to weigh in on the situation. He was probably at home cheering on the videos of dead Palestinians. I am sure you are so proud.
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BTW Joe Klein, why don't you include numbers in your post about how many Israelis were killed by those Hamas Rockets in the last say 5 years?
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For some perspective on the Hamas "rockets" here is a clip from the Young Turks.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUxDwZli2cQ
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I think I made the same point on Saturday but I used an automatic weapon instead of a flame thrower in my analogy.

[...] TIME’s Joe Klein: There are no decisive blows in Gaza.       [...]

Gradually, very gradually, support for Israel is eroding. The tactics used by Hamas and Hezbollah of seeding their fighters among the population always presents a dilemma for the traditionalists in the Israel Army: men and women who prefer to follow the "rules and laws of war". If one drops bombs, no matter how precisely, one ends up with five dead girls in one family dying in horrendous circumstances. That will sink into the Arab psyche. The same for victims of suicide bombers: Israeli survivors carry their losses too.

In the end this will only be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians. We are hopelessly compromised, and the EU is reluctant to be forceful.

The Israelis have lost the moral authority they once had.

Joe, you have come a ways on this road to the middle ground and taken lots of flak. But people like you who know both the politcs here and in the the Middle East have to engage. I read Nir Rosen and take what he say seriously.

Nibbly says
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Is it really 5 Israelis? You aren't counting the suicide bombings, the constant state of attack with missiles incoming.
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And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.
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What I find interesting is how tepid has been the response by the Palestinian Authority from the West Bank. It reflects the fracture within the Palestinian leadership, which does not view Hamas favorably. And the surrounding Arab countries see the assault for what it is -- deserved retaliation against Hamas -- and have stayed out of it. So why not take the opportunity to do as much as possible?
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1. Yes it is 5 deaths, Israelis do NOT live in a constant state of fear because its damn near impossible for any suicide bomber to actually get into Israel right now. If you think their living conditions are rough you should read up on what life is like for any citizen living in Gaza. And don't forget that they can't leave. Let me say that again, they CAN'T LEAVE.
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2. Hamas doesn't hide with the civilian population, they ARE part of the civilian population. They aren't an army. They do have a police force and guess what, they actually do a pretty good job of keeping the peace. Hamas leaders are also duly elected officials as well as care givers in the community. Its easy for us to label them terrorists and put them in a box from our comfy seats over here but you might want to ask what that really means. Hamas hates Israel and is committed to their destruction. Ok what tools do they have at their disposal to carry that destruction out? Rocks and "rockets". There is a reason why pro Israel politicians and groups always point to what Hamas SAYS they want to do to Israel.
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3. Nibbly are you serious? You might want to google "protest" and "Gaza" and see what the other Arab countries are REALLY saying about this conflict. You might also want to look into what the prime minister of Iraq had to say about it yesterday along with the Ayatollah in Iraq monday. Egypt politicians want no part because they already took heavy casualties in other wars against Israel over Palestinians. But the Egyptian citizens are PISSED.

nibbly- "there is no single authority representing the Palestinians that can make a deal for the whole population."
I don't agree, Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people. We chose to ignore the results since we didn't like the outcome and actively undermine their democracy. Perhaps if we recognized the government, worked with regional partners (yes, I'm talking about Iran, and others) Hamas could have been a non-military entity and an advocate for peace.
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Look, I'm not trying to argue that Hamas + Iran = good, US + Israel = bad. Rather that until we can evaluate the problem in an honest and non-biased way, we can't begin to solve it.
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For instance, is the US supplying the Israelis advanced weaponry "just" while Iran supplying Hamas with 20 mile range missile launchers "evil"?
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And regardless of "right or wrong", by supplying these weapons and not condemning Israel and Hamas equally, we have placed our soldiers at a greater risk, undermined the Iraqi government, fueled terrorism, strengthened Hamas' cause and fostered instability. For further elaboration, Juan Cole makes all these points and more over the past three days.

nibbly: you sound like a propagandist. It is easy to understand passion. But in conflicts like this we and the Israelis prefer to talk to the people we like or who can be twirled around our fingers (Abbas) and we refuse to engage those we don't like - Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Maybe we should be talking to Iran and by extension to Hamas and Hezbollah. That way we will get our own feel for issues. Nowadays we rely on the Israelis for a regional perspective, and they are not going to give us anything which undermines their own policy prescriptions.

I think the problem has always been that things have to be "good" before anyone fears the return of bad times.
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Let's take a wacky example. How much support is there for a "Free Hong Kong from China" movement? What would the relatively prosperous people of Hong Kong do if young twits started carrying missiles through the streets and firing them at the Chinese soldiers? They'd go to the nearest Chinese soldier and tell them where the missiles were. That results from a balanced use of carrot and stick with China getting a piece of the action.
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What would the Palestinians do if they had money or a hope to do something more than just survive and the same twits in Hamas showed up to get Israel to drop the hammer? They'd take out the troublemakers themselves.
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If you never give people something they can then lose they have no reason not to kill you. Their choice is death or imprisonment then death.

Via Glenn Greenwald. The entire article is a worthy read.
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The comments also deserve attention.

I must say that I find my own reaction to the recent turn of events rather interesting, because up to now, I have been of the Jimmy Carter view of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. But I don't hold any view about that region with conviction. It's too complicated, too morally ambiguous. Day to day perspective shifts, and bottom line, I have never personally been there and seen for myself, though I am blessed enough to know many who have and are generous with their observations.
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Because of that, I also reject dogma from any party that frames the situation as one side good, the other bad. And therefore I don't really buy into sgw's take on things. (I really don't agree with you on those tunnels. And as for Egyptian citizens -- that's to be expected, knowing Egypt at all.)
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Do I think humanitarian aid should be denied suffering children and women? Umm, I hope not. That would be pretty heartless, wouldn't it? But I'm also wary over a civilian population that so eagerly straps on the bombs to kill other women and children.

bitter: I hope I don't sound like a propagandist. I hope you're not saying that just because I hold a different opinion than you.

But the Egyptian citizens are PISSED.
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It's not like there are any citizens anywhere happy about any of this.