Obama's First Test

It certainly does seem like there are various bad actors wanting to get their licks in before the adults take over - or, perhaps, while we collectively have so much on our plates we can't notice one more thing.
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KT - your cited story says that "Israel's strike on Gaza had been expected for days, but it was still a surprise when it finally came." I'm not clear why it was a surprise if it was expected. Can you enlighten me?
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Someone last night (don't remember who) said the mutual attacks were a result of discontent by both sides with the cease fire just brokered.
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MSNBC now says on the web site that 270 have been killed.
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KT - yes, that was my sense too. Thanks for the change. This is such a heartbreaking story.
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I did hear someone (Israeli envoy stationed in Boston, on NECN) talking about Hamas using civilians as a shield. He said that Israeli wanted to kill members of Hamas and unintentionally hits civilians, and that Hamas wants to kill civilians. Um, this is pretty lame. If true it presents a dilemma for Israel in how to respond, but it is undeniably 1 Israeli dead, 270 Palestinians dead.

kathy
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From what I read on several different sites the reason it wasn't expected is because the Israelis deliberately misled the people in Gaza to believe that they were waiting to meet today to decide on on any military action. Besides that there is evidence that these strikes have been planned ofr months, long before the ceasefire ended and supposedly the Israelis were on the one hand negotiating in "good faith" for a new ceasefire agreement and on the other hand planning these actions. Now mind you I don't known all the ins and outs of everything. But I DO know that during the ceasefire Hamas curtailed the militants firing off rockets to less than one a day while Israel did none of the things they said they would do as far as opening up their borders. I linked to a Huffington Post article last night on the other thread. Its a really really good primer on all of this.
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For once other countries are calling Israel out for their overkill. (The EU has even denounced the actions) Everybody except the US of course. We are saying Israel has a right to defend itself. Well I thought of this analogy. If a person throws a hundred rocks at me and none of them ever hit me then in response I pull out an AK 47 and mow him down in a spray of bullets how many juries do you think would by my "self defense" defense?

sgw- remember the invasion of Lebanaon a year or so ago? The IC came out against that "overkill", too. and Condi just encouraged the Israeli military while Lebanon was reduced to rubble in large swathes.

Israel has learned well from its benefactor.

KT
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I just read your note on the Shaka thread. I want you to know that I wasn't singling you out. If you go to Joe Klein's thread on Afghanistan you will see me commenting about the Gaza attack very early in the morning. I also want you to know that I had already read the offerings up from time on the subject that weren't on the Swampland blogs.
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Here is my thing and I know that none of you work for me or are here to do my bidding but whether you are a foreign policy wonk or not a story about 200 something people getting killed and 700 other people being injured including children in both categories to me would have merited a post if it had happened in Europe or China or Russia but because it happened in the Gaza strip it seemed like not only Swampland but many other very popular blogs just decided not to touch it. Go to TPM, go to Juan Coles place, go to Spencer Ackermans spot (all usually good on foreign policy)and you will find maybe a brief snippet about it if that. Why is that?
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Whether you think Israel is right or the Palestinians are right or you don't think anybody is right I think that many times blogs are and can be useful as a sounding board. I think it would have been good for instance to have a post up yesterday where many of the very informed people who normally post here could have had an outlet to express what their views are on the situation. And what the US response should be to it.
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BTW I don't know if many people realize this but many christians believe that a WW that starts with Israel would be a sign of the end times. And sooner or later if Israel keeps this up some Arab country is going to feel compelled to come to Palestines rescue and at that point all hell could break loose. Maybe at somepoint that should be an angle to explore. But I digress.
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Like kathy said above, its not hard in my opinion to write a post that says 1 dead on one side 227 dead on the other. So if its the fact that the story is about Israel and THATS the reason why everybody is hesitant to write about it then to me the whole "I don't know about that" excuse falls flat. I would have a hard time believing that Joe Klein doesn't know about the conflict over there and yet he put up a post yesterday instead about afghanistan and then hauled ass.

This is where I recuse myself from the conversation because the whole 'logic' of warfare is something that remains beyond my understanding. We are each morally responsible for our own actions. To hold individuals responsible for the acts of those around them flies in the face of the way I understand the world. People who launch expolsives in the direction of other humans are murderers. People who die in such attacks are innocent victims. Who's 'side' anyone represents is irrelevant to the discussion.

here is the link to an israeli newspaper and their accounts of what is going on. It is admittedly biased but even they don't agree with all of the military actions.
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http://www.haaretz.com/
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Also isn't it funny how the U.S. chose to wait to denounce the rocket attacks coming from the Gaza strip until AFTER Israel had killed over 200 palestinians?
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Definitely not funny ha ha.

So the international community is watching how the President-elect and his incoming Secretary of State will react to the Israeli attack on Gaza...
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Are they supposed to race to DC and elbow W out of the White House and Condi out of the State Department and take over? Would that be considered a coup or simply justifiable? I am more than eager to have the entire Bush team out, but...
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Death toll now approaching 290. Shocking.

ivb
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Unfortunately it seems that Obama himself even if he was in office might be reciting the same rhetoric as the Bushies. His stance on Israel was one of maybe 3 things that actually gave me pause about his presidency. There shouldn't be a country on the face of this planet that we pledge blind loyalty to no matter what their actions. Period.

sgw, I agree with you. I was also concerned about his stance on this. However, all this drumbeat about what he must do does annoy me since he is in fact not president yet.

"There shouldn't be a country on the face of this planet that we pledge blind loyalty to no matter what their actions."
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I guess since we have so much in common we can't help ourselves.
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The Israelis on Saturday killed 5% of all the Palestinians they have killed since the beginning of 2001! 230 people were slaughtered in a day, over 70 of them innocent civilians. In contrast, from the ceasefire Hamas announced in June, 2008 until Saturday, no Israelis had been killed by Hamas. The infliction of this sort of death toll is known in the law of war as a disproportionate response, and it is a war crime.
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http://www.juancole.com/

KT
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What if he disagrees with Bush. He could set off WW3 before he ever takes office. Sorry I am not buying that one

"I think it is important for him to send a signal of where he stands on this, and what U.S. posture will be. After all, in only three weeks, he will be our one-President-at-a-time."
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KT-GWB is as lame a duck as he can get right now. There is no other leadership. All of the parties know full well that however, is it possible Obama could still over reach and be accused of taking charge too soon?

KT
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That post from Rosenberg sounds like the worst kind of wishful thinking. Seriously

I think it is important for him to send a signal of where he stands on this, and what U.S. posture will be. After all, in only three weeks, he will be our one-President-at-a-time.
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Agreed. It's important for all the parties involved to have a solid understanding of what US policy will be in 4 weeks. Maybe if this had happened in mid-November it would be different.
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I can't truly understand why the Israeli government would think this is a good idea. It's so obviously counterproductive.

Uhmmm The UN Security council had a meetinng last night where Libya was trying to get them to strongly condemn Israel and threaten them. It was pooh pooed by the US ambassador and others and all you got out of it was a strongly worded letter. If Obama signals he doesn't agree with Bush he could potentially give Arab nations and others reason to more forcefully come out against Israel which could include military action or terrorist acts. Is a dangerous line for Obama right now when all he controls is his mouth.

Don't forget that Israel hasn't stopped attacking and they say they won't any time soon. If they invade like it looks like they might whats to stop Iran or Lebanon or Libya or any other Arab country from sending troops to turn back the Israelis if they interpret Obama as saying that Israel is wrong?

KT
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Bring them back to the table with Bush? To quote Keyshawn Johnson on NFL Countdown "Cmon Man"
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In three weeks the world could be gone as we know it with the wrong move. Aint a damm thing Obama can say that will stop Israel from attacking during these next 3 weeks while Bush is still in office and he endorses them. But it could spur Arab nations into acting. Not a good thing when you have Bush's trigger happy ass still as CIC. You know he would love to be the president that brought about the rapture.